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Metapolitics & Occult Warfare, Part 3

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French translation here

Part 3 of 4

If the dominant current of decline is, to one extent or another, actually created, sustained, and guided by occult warfare, is it possible to use the same means to reverse decline? No—and yes. 

The Traditionalists do not think it is possible to replace decline with “progress,” i.e., progress toward the realization of Golden Age ideals, since Traditionalists believe that decline is the dominant current of time. One declines from the Golden Age; one does not progress toward it. But at the end of the Dark Age, a new Golden Age will dawn, so although one cannot progress toward a Golden Age, one can decline toward it; one can slide into it. Thus, from this perspective, further decline can actually be seen as a kind of progress, for things cannot get better until decline has run its course.

But this is no argument for quietism, for inaction, for just waiting for an impersonal historical destiny to do our work for us. For, as we have seen, historical destiny is not impersonal. It works through concrete individuals and groups who have a place to stand and a lever to move the human world. In The Crisis of the Modern World,[1] Guénon writes:

. . . the characteristic features of this epoch are in actual fact those which the traditional doctrines have from all time indicated for the cyclic period to which it corresponds [namely the Dark Age or Kali Yuga]. . . . what is anomaly and disorder from a certain point of view is nevertheless a necessary element of a vaster order and an inevitable consequence of the laws which govern the development of all manifestation. However, let it be said at once, this is no reason for consenting to submit passively to the disorder and obscurity which seem momentarily to triumph, for, were it so, we should have nothing better to do than keep silence [which Guénon did not do]; on the contrary, it is a reason for striving to the utmost to prepare the way out of this “dark age,” for there are many signs that its end is already near, if not imminent. (Crisis, p. 9)

Guénon does not merely claim that we ought to resist the Dark Age, but that resistance already exists. He offers a metaphysical argument for this claim:

This [resistance] also is part of the appointed order of things, for equilibrium is the result of the simultaneous action of two contrary tendencies; if one or the other could cease to act entirely, equilibrium would never be restored, and the world itself would disappear; but this supposition has no possibility of realization, for the two terms of an opposition have no meaning apart from one another, and whatever the appearances, one may be sure, that all partial and transitory disequilibriums contribute in the end toward realizing the total equilibrium. (Crisis, p. 9)

Guénon’s point is that all realities are comprised of opposed forces in equilibrium. Today, Dark Age currents are dominant. But that does not mean that Golden Age counter-currents are entirely absent, for if they were absent, the world would collapse into total chaos, rather than display the evil and inverted order that exists today. (If chaos reigned, one would expect the good guys to win once in a while.) Thus a Golden Age counter-current must exist and exert a countervailing influence to the Dark Age, but in a hidden and recessive manner. Furthermore, as with the forces of subversion, this Golden Age counter-current does not exist merely as a disembodied tendency. It is the work of concrete individuals and groups.

In the final chapter of The Crisis of the Modern World, Guénon further discusses this counter-current. He claims that, “the modern world would cease to exist at once if men understood what it really is, since its existence, like that of ignorance and all that implies limitation, is purely negative: it exits only through negation of the traditional and superhuman truth” (Crisis, p. 157).

Such truth cannot be understood by the vast majority, but this is not necessary, since “it would be enough if there were a numerically small but powerfully established elect to guide the masses, who would obey their suggestions without suspecting their existence or having any idea of their means of action . . .” (Crisis, p. 157). Clearly, this elect must operate at least in part through dissimulation, as do the initiates of the Counter-Tradition.

Guénon discusses how such a Traditional elect might work to end the Kali Yuga. First, he emphasizes that there cannot be any absolute discontinuity between the Kali Yuga and the coming Golden Age, meaning that they exist within the same causal nexus, so that things we do now will affect the Golden Age to come. A Traditional elect with the knowledge and the power to end the Kali Yuga, “could so prepare the change that it would take place in the most favorable conditions possible, and the disturbances that must inevitably accompany it would in this way be reduced to a minimum.” But, even if that proved impossible, the Traditionalist elect could perform “another yet more important task, that of helping to preserve the elements which must survive from the present world to be used in building up the one to follow” (Crisis, p. 158).

Along the way, Guénon drops a bombshell in question form: “is it still possible for this elect to be effectively established in the West?” (Crisis, p. 157)—implying that the elect does not exist in the West. He goes on to explain that such Traditional elites do, however, still exist in the East, safeguarding the “ark” of Tradition (Crisis, p. 159). He also speculates on how a Western elect might be reconstituted, either by finding and reviving a living remnant of Tradition in the West, which Guénon thinks unlikely, or by Westerners becoming initiates of Eastern masters. The latter path was, for instance, taken by Savitri Devi, probably under Guénon’s influence:

I embraced Hinduism because it was the only religion in the world that is compatible with National Socialism. And the dream of my life is to integrate Hitlerism into the old Aryan tradition, to show that it is really a resurgence of the original Tradition. It’s not Indian, not European, but Indo-European. It comes from back to those days when the Aryans were one people near the North Pole. The Hyperborean Tradition.[2]

I do not know if a Traditionalist elect has emerged in the West since 1927, when Guénon published The Crisis of the Modern World, but if Guénon is right, we can rest assured that Eastern masters (a kind of League of Shadows, perhaps) are waging the occult war on our behalf, otherwise the Dark Age—which is not chaos but a kind of negative order—would have given way to complete chaos long ago.

Notes

1. René Guénon, The Crisis of the Modern World, trans. Arthur Osborne (Ghent, N.Y.: Sophia Perennis et Universalis, 1996).

2. Savitri Devi, And Time Rolls On: The Savitri Devi Interviews, ed. R. G. Fowler (Atlanta: Black Sun Publications, 2006), p. 117.

 

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19 Comments

  1. The Goy Chevalier
    Posted December 12, 2012 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    This is a decent peek at Guenon’s work. I first heard of Guenon via Fr. Raphael Johnson, and I’ve since worked my way through “Introduction to the Hindu Doctrines” several times. He makes the same general statement about Western decline in the concluding chapter of that book, what I assume ultimately lead to the publication of “The Crisis of The Modern World.” I am looking forward to reading it.

    An interesting aside about National Socialism: I came across the following quote in Brasol’s “Socialism vs. Civilization.” I don’t know very much about the history of NS, but Brasol simply makes a statement to the effect that this Jewish reference to “national socialism” is deeply rooted in ethnic and religious history and tradition, and is basically an attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable: namely, strong nationalism with an international, or “borderless” movement. Brasol simply states that it’s not within the scope of the present work to dissect the Jewish Question.

    The world-wide organization of Poale-Zionism, the Poale-Zion “International,” so to say, is the symbol of national and social unity of the workers of Jewry in all countries. It is the practical demonstration to the world that nationality is stronger than and distinct from State; it shows the essential unity of fate and aim of the Jewish Socialists. Through it every organization of Paole-Zioniosm is part and parcel of the world-wide Jewish movement for freedom. The international Poale-Zion Confederation is the living expression of National Socialism or Socialistic Nationalism, which has been finally recognized as the only true conception of Socialism.

    The Aims of Jewish Labor. Memorandum to the Socialist Labor Democracy of the World by the Jewish Socialist Labor Party, Poale-Zion of America, p. 17 (New York City, 1918).

  2. The Goy Chevalier
    Posted December 12, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    And ultimately, I believe that the power to reinstate a Traditional elect, if you will, lies no longer within the power of the people of the West. Guenon does mention that as the only way out with the least amount of pain. But I think it’s too late. And the alternatives are nasty.

    The work to be undertaken would have to be confined at the start purely to the intellectual order, which comprises all that is really essential, since it is concerned with the principles on which all else depends; it is obvious that its consequences would spread later on, more or less quickly, into every other sphere, by a perfectly natural repercussion. Modifying the mental outlook of the people is the one and only means of bring about any deep or lasting change, even in the social sphere; to think of starting out from consequences is a pre-eminently illogical method, only worthy of the impatient and sterile agitation of present-day Westerners.

    — p.347 “Introduction to The Hindu Doctrines.”

    The above statement points to, in my mind, the giant disconnect between the pragmatic and theoretical modes of the “Occidental identity movement.” Personally I’m worried that we don’t have the proper intellectual foundation for beginning the above-mentioned process.

    As for the nature of the events that will lead up to this re-orientation, it is possible that people will one day begin to notice that things which now appear all-important are unable to yield the results expected of them; but this in itself would presuppose a certain change in the general mental trend, even though the disillusion were chiefly sentimental in character, arising for instance from having come to realize the non-existence of a “moral progress” running parallel with the progress called scientific. Indeed, if they are not to be supplied from an outside source, the means of change will essentially be as mediocre in quality as the mentality which they are called upon to influence; but this mediocrity would not augur very well for the results to follow.

    pp. 337-338

    Some sort of rupture must necessarily occur…but will it be good for the West?

    The most unfavorable result would occur if nothing were introduced to take the place of the civilization in question, so that, as it disappeared, the West, abandoned to its own fate, would sink into the lowest forms of barbarism. To understand this possibility, it is enough to call to mind several examples of civilizations that have been entirely obliterated, even without having to go back beyond what are called historical times. Some of these civilizations belonged to peoples who disappeared along with them, but this fate would hardly apply except to fairly localised cultures; in the case of civilizations enjoying a widespread extension it is more likely that the survivors would find themselves reduced to a degenerate state more or less comparable with that of which, as we remarked earlier, is represented by certain of the present-day savages.

    What Guenon regards as the most positive possibility in this particular circumstance, any Westerner will take issue with.

    The second eventuality is the one in which representatives of other civilizations, namely Eastern peoples, in rescuing the Western world from this incurable decay, would assimilate it by consent or by force, either as a whole or in respect of some of its component parts–that is assuming that the thing were possible and that the East were willing to do this. It is to be hoped that no one is so blinded by Western prejudice as not to recognize how much this hypothesis is to be preferred to the first one: under such circumstances there would doubtless be a transitional period of extremely painful ethnical revolutions, which are difficult to picture but which in their final result would be of a nature to compensate for the damage certain to be sustained during a catastrophe of this kind; but in that case the West would have had to forego its own chracter and would find itself absorbed purely and simply.

    p. 341

    But there is still a third option for Westerners, one obviously more favorable in our view, but one which, very sadly, I simply don’t think possible given the state of intellectual and conscious degradation. This is why the general public cannot participate in the intellectual revival, other than as a means of channeling the modes of existence inspired by the intellectual elite.

    For these reasons a third possibility may be regarded as being far more favorable from the Western point of view, though merely equivalent, truth to tell, from the general point of view of humanity, since, were it to be fulfilled, its effect would be to have brought about the disappearance of the Western anomaly, not by suppression as in the first case, but, as in the second, by a return to true and normal intellectuality; but this return, instead of being imposed under duress, or at most accepted and experienced through external influence, would in this case be effected voluntarily and as it were spontaneously. It is easy to see what this last possibility implies, if it is to be realizable: it would mean that the West, at the very moment when its development in the present direction was nearing its end, had succeeded in discovering within itself the principles of a development in a different direction, which it would thenceforth carry out in quite a natural manner; and this fresh development, by turning its civilization into something comparable with those of the East, would allow of its occupying in the world, no a position of preponderance to which it is not entitled and which it owes at present only to its employment of brute force, but at least the position that it would lawfully occupy as one civilization among others, a civilization moreover which, under these conditions, would cease to be an element of maladjustment and of oppression for the rest of mankind.

    — p. 342

    Of course, Guenon basically states that the Western mind is metaphysically incapable of realizing the same truths as have been realized for millennia in the Orient. He also nowhere discussion the anomalous presence of a certain group of “people” who have a particular habit of attachment themselves to any and every civilization in which they find themselves, and suck it dry materially, spiritually, and intellectually.

    I also would like to read, from his perspective, of the roles secret societies in the West play in helping achieve this reality. From my cursory study of their existence, it seems the history of Western secret societies is stamped with the Kosher seal of approval. Guenon ran the secret society circuit in his young days in France, renounced it, and then came back to it later in life.

    • Jaego
      Posted December 12, 2012 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

      You are corect: Guenon and his disciples do not think much of Western spiritual capacity. Sometimes they seem to be saying that this a natural incapacity. We are only superior in our technical development – which they don’t value. Are they right? Don’t know, but when Whites talk about different Cultures, this is what they focus on as if it was the only thing.

      And what would they think of our White Nationalism? Probably very little indeed. What makes us singular from other races is our Promethean quality – which they see as a detriment, something opposed to the natural order. Evola is the best fit for us since he seemed to value our uniqueness and our desire to fight for our own survival. In other words, he identified with the West and did not convert to another culture. Of course he too critiqued our exclusive emphasis on matter, our lack of character, and our dismissal of the sacred.

      • Fourmyle of Ceres
        Posted December 12, 2012 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

        Jaego in blockquote:

        You are corect: Guenon and his disciples do not think much of Western spiritual capacity. Sometimes they seem to be saying that this a natural incapacity. We are only superior in our technical development – which they don’t value. Are they right? Don’t know, but when Whites talk about different Cultures, this is what they focus on as if it was the only thing.

        Yet, “Western spiritual capacity” is a function of the structure of Western Consciousness; Christ Consciousness, if you will, the true living foundation of Western Civilization. The “limits” are the Shadows of our strengths. This, so far, has been twofold; one, true personal individuation, and two, the ability to take the abstraction of events, understand them abstractly, and work with them temporally by building new Tools, and with those Tools, build even better Tools. Buckminster Fuller called this the Machine Tool Principle. We can do this. No other Race can. It’s a function of Consciousness.

        Look at Greek Civilization. They had the steam engine. To them, it was a mere toy.

        Look at Roman Civilization, with the steam engine, geared transmissions, and superior metallurgy.

        Both were still incapable of working with these in the abstract, and developing the “logical” next Tool – the railroad. The Overmind of these Civilizations, if you will, functioned as a governor to insure that their spiritual lessons (and Work) of those subCultures stayed “within the lines” of the karmic Duty, both at the personal, and tribal level. (As an aside, imagine the Roman Empire with steam locomotives!)

        It has been fifty years – the blink of an eye, Culturally – and we have moved from expensive mainframes with guardians of their information to the IPhone 5, and the world’s knowledge available online, realtime, twenty-four-seven. The foundation for true democracy is now in place, something the Greeks thought of only as an abstraction. Yet, our Tools make it a possibility for all.

        Think the Greeks of today aren’t using their IPhones to change their world? Bet on it.

        Only The West can do this. One and all might do well to keep in mind the ending of “Childhood’s End.” The material world was created as a Schoolhouse for our incarnating souls, and this planet, uniquely in the known Universe, allows true freedom for the development of the human soul.

        Best take advantage of that while we can.

        And what would they think of our White Nationalism? Probably very little indeed. What makes us singular from other races is our Promethean quality – which they see as a detriment, something opposed to the natural order. Evola is the best fit for us since he seemed to value our uniqueness and our desire to fight for our own survival. In other words, he identified with the West and did not convert to another culture. Of course he too critiqued our exclusive emphasis on matter, our lack of character, and our dismissal of the sacred.

        Character – what you do when no one is looking – is being forced on us, one way or another.

        Evola is right. The Indian path has numerous strengths that are perfect or the Indian Soul. It does lend itself to fatalism, and with that, a passive resignation to the state of affairs.

        The Western path, the path of Transformation, crushes passivity, as we make a BETTER world for our Posterity.

        THIS is why I am such a strong supporter of Yockey, for he wrote of our Duty to our Destiny in literally cosmic terms. He wrote as much as e could, but no more, of the vertical component of Race.

        That having been said, there is a state among the beginning of Adult Individuation called “Building the Hut,” where you take the spiritual framework into which you were born, in this lifetime, and give it a new life by transforming it into what is appropriate for your spiritual development.

        Take the example of Savitri. She was born into one spiritual framework, for this lifetime, and grew beyond it, into what for her seems to have dynamic peace within one Aspect of Hinduism. There is a lot more to Hinduism than that, for the common foundation of the only religion, Tradition, outworks in the material world in many ways, each appropriate for its place, and its time.

        Thus, for example,. the dying ashes of Zoroastrianism were reborn as the Cultural foundation of Christianity. In turn, Christ transformed that foundation into Something much better, and much more fitting, for the future dwellings of Western Consciousness.

        But that’s for another time.

    • Lew
      Posted December 12, 2012 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

      Guenon converted to an enemy religion. What did it get him? Is there any evidence from his own words he found what he was looking for?

      • Jaego
        Posted December 13, 2012 at 1:12 am | Permalink

        It is said that he was Radiant and deeply at Peace – revered by his neighbors as a Sheik and sought as a Teacher by students from all over Europe. In a word, he was a Sufi. But you are right too: if a White Man marries a beautiful young woman from another culture, he will end up serving her ugly relations. And if a White Man becomes a Sufi, he will end up serving Islam – hide it as he will with made up words like “Islamism”.

      • Kerry Bolton
        Posted December 13, 2012 at 1:24 am | Permalink

        I didn’t realise that Sufism is an ‘enemy religion’. ‘Enemy’ of what?

      • Lew
        Posted December 13, 2012 at 11:10 am | Permalink

        Sufism is a form of Islam. Islam and its followers are enemies of Euro civilization. The fact that there are a vanishingly small number of traditionalist Muslims in the world that don’t necessarily see Euros as infidels that must submit to Allah doesn’t change this. Exceptions like Rene Guenon and his spiritual heirs don’t change the general case.

      • Lew
        Posted December 13, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

        Sufis support dhimmitude and look to the Quran. What else does anyone need to know?

  3. The Goy Chevalier
    Posted December 12, 2012 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Oops, I should have read part II before post that very last paragraph. Excellent work here. Glad to have CC as a resource.

  4. Jaego
    Posted December 13, 2012 at 1:29 am | Permalink

    Yes Fourmyle, the Romans knew about water wheels for milling grain, but they were set in their ways and prefered the ugliness they knew: slavery. Christianity did alot for Western Man – it did bring to the fore the value of the Individual. That’s why although St Paul didn’t condemn it outright, the very ethos implicit in Christianity gradually overcame it. Too much so? Did its implicit ethos gradually come to persectue the Superior Man just as it had destroyed the racial understanding of the Ancient Pagans? Yes, Yes, and Yes. So the Battle begins again but at a higher turning of the spiral. Is Christianity up to the challenges put forward by the new Techno Pagans? But what a terrible time to have this battle – when we are beset by the barbarians without and the traitors within. But that is why we are beset now – a house divided cannot stand.

    Read a bit on Kinism – looks very strong on both Race and Family, theoretically and practically. But the Calvinist background is utterly exoteric. How to convince them that the Christianity is far more than just Faith and that the Church has Mysteries beyond their ken. To begin: If Man were utterly corrupt, he could never know it or be taught it by any scripture or prophet. The doctrine of Complete Perversity is utterly perverse and gots to go…

    • Fourmyle of Ceres
      Posted December 13, 2012 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

      Jaego in blockquote:

      Yes Fourmyle, the Romans knew about water wheels for milling grain, but they were set in their ways and prefered the ugliness they knew: slavery. Christianity did alot for Western Man – it did bring to the fore the value of the Individual. That’s why although St Paul didn’t condemn it outright, the very ethos implicit in Christianity gradually overcame it. Too much so? Did its implicit ethos gradually come to persectue the Superior Man just as it had destroyed the racial understanding of the Ancient Pagans? Yes, Yes, and Yes. So the Battle begins again but at a higher turning of the spiral. Is Christianity up to the challenges put forward by the new Techno Pagans? But what a terrible time to have this battle – when we are beset by the barbarians without and the traitors within. But that is why we are beset now – a house divided cannot stand.

      Good point. The dualistic battle within Christianity is a mirror of the dualistic battle between looking to the Past, for lessons, versus looking to the Past, in retreat. Technology, the process of tool creation, is not going away, and thankfully so. Either we accept what is there, and deal with it – and ourselves!, or we go under, like Islam after 1492. Once the Enlightenment took place, and the scientific method took hold, Islam was doomed to endlessly recapitulate the Seventh Century.

      Too many of our hard-core fundamentalist Christians are “survivalists.” As Heinlein noted in his critique of such, “Where did the ax you are using come from? Where did the steel in the axe come from?” Wat we must focus on is continuing to develop the mindset that only the West allows, and requires – abstract thought, scientific method/reasoning, and application to the world before us. This is the process of Transformation, the true goal of Christianity, of remaking the obstacles of this world of the Mind, into the opportunities for the development of the Soul.

      That is the process of WESTERN Civilization. That is the process that derives from our Mindset, that sees the red sand in the desert, realizes the iron ore can be transformed into steel, and then various types of alloys. read Buckminster Fuller, and se his joy as he describes the seventy-five alloys in the Model “T” Ford. He saw the implications of that, and THAT mindset is why Henry Ford is a genius the equal of any other we have.

      Read a bit on Kinism – looks very strong on both Race and Family, theoretically and practically. But the Calvinist background is utterly exoteric. How to convince them that the Christianity is far more than just Faith and that the Church has Mysteries beyond their ken. To begin: If Man were utterly corrupt, he could never know it or be taught it by any scripture or prophet. The doctrine of Complete Perversity is utterly perverse and gots to go…

      Let’s take your comment above: “Did its implicit ethos gradually come to persectue the Superior Man just as it had destroyed the racial understanding of the Ancient Pagans?” Isn’t Kinism an opportunity to restore the Racial Foundation of Christianity in a manner acceptable to their Doctrine? Can this be a way to meld the Pagan strength of the importance of Family and Race (as the extended Family) back into the contemporary practice of Christianity, which is so hostile to Family, and the Masculine?

      Might a Restatement of the Pagan Ethos be useful in developing the Restatement of Christianity, restoring the vital Masculine as the dynamic counterpoint to the Return of Sophia, each offering its best in turn as they complement OUR Work of transformation?

      I like to think so.

      That a New Church would require a new, assertive Order of Priesthood seems all the more obvious to me. The Adversary has always attacked the Warrior Caste above all, and a positive counterforce to that is requires to, well, countervail these efforts.

      This requires we act in the spirit of true Freedom, and, a we all know, “Freedom is not free.”

      What is also required is money, sent to counter-currents, each and every month.

      If we bring the battle, the Gods – “the Old, as well as the New” – will bring the victory.

  5. Jaego
    Posted December 13, 2012 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    No Islam is the Enemy – as I made clear. Sufism is the beautiful relation. Of course that depends on whether a person identifies as a European. Mohammad is a contradiction and will remain so. How did Martin Lings delicately put it? Europeans have trouble “with certain personal features” of Mohammad. Like his butchering all the men of a defeated Jewish Tribe and then taking one of their women to bed just after. He even asked her to marry him. She said no. So just little things like that. Did Christ or Buddha act that way? As Savitri Devi said, Much Lightening to go with his Sun. Muslims and Sufis have to figure out where they stand with all that. Most of them just ignore it. But Westerners wont be as good at ignoring it. Luckily as Euro-Americans, it’s not our problem. We have lots of our own problems to figure out.

  6. Posted December 15, 2012 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    A very good summary, Greg. Although a curious thing that I’ve never seen referenced by any of the traditionalists is the fact that, according to the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, there is a 10,000-year “golden age” within Kali-Yuga, that we are currently in. This golden age is far inferior to the actual Golden Age (Satya-Yuga), but still, more possibilities are available to us now than there are at other points in Kali-Yuga. Thus, greater political and spiritual redress may be possible now than at other times in the Kali-Yuga – certainly more than Evola or Guenon seemed to have believed to be possible. I’m not sure if they weren’t aware of it or what. I certainly hope so, because Kali-Yuga still has over 400,000 more years to run.

    I think Martin Lings summed up our situation in Kali-Yuga best: “If it can be said that man collectively shrinks back more and more from the Truth, it can also be said that on all sides the Truth is closing in more and more upon man. It might also be said that, in order to receive a touch of It, which in the past required a lifetime of effort, all that is asked of him now is not to shrink back. And yet how difficult that is!”

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted December 15, 2012 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

      Such dating schemes strike me as rather dubious, and certainly not to be taken literally.

      • Posted December 15, 2012 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

        If one adopts the terminology and metaphysics of the Vedic scriptures, it doesn’t make sense to cherry-pick and neglect other aspects of that same system. Traditionalism is opposed to viewing spiritual wisdom as mere “symbols” or “myths,” which is the hallmark of modernity, and is one of the ways that traditional truth is trivialized. The traditions contain concrete truth.

        Of course, there is no agreement concerning the timing of the various yugas, even among the various branches of the Vedic tradition, but the Brahma Vaivarta Purana is about as traditional a source as there is.

      • Fourmyle of Ceres
        Posted December 16, 2012 at 3:05 am | Permalink

        John Morgan in blockquote:

        If one adopts the terminology and metaphysics of the Vedic scriptures, it doesn’t make sense to cherry-pick and neglect other aspects of that same system. Traditionalism is opposed to viewing spiritual wisdom as mere “symbols” or “myths,” which is the hallmark of modernity, and is one of the ways that traditional truth is trivialized. The traditions contain concrete truth.

        This is true, and yet what is “revealed” as “myth” is exactly as much truth as that Mind can handle. For instance, no one believes literally in the myth of the 40 Day Flood. However, that is all some can see until they are ready for the deeper truth, that this was the symbolic restatement of the ending of the Atlantean Age, taking place over tens thousands of years, forcing the construction of new vehicles to handle the Next Stage of the development of Mankind.

        Michael Cremo, of “Forbidden Archaeology” fame, was so inspired by the Vedas he has devoted his life to proving their literal truth in several works.

        Of course, there is no agreement concerning the timing of the various yugas, even among the various branches of the Vedic tradition, but the Brahma Vaivarta Purana is about as traditional a source as there is.

        Yet, as Spirit, Soul and Mind evolve to allow more complex understanding of the Universe – and our Role in it – we can see Restatements that allow an alternative, no less wiser, statement of these scriptures.

        Devotees of Sathya Sai Baba hold that his books, “Sathya Sai Speaks,” are a rewriting of the Vedas, suffused with prema. They also hold he is the Avatar of the Kali Yuga. Incidentally, speaking of the Avatar of the Kali Yuga, someone made a recording on YouTube of him reciting the Gayatri Mantra, set to nature sounds, with scenes for what seem to be computer games. When he recites the “Om” for the second verse, if memory serves, the (male!) chorus comes in to accompany him. Some have found themselves saying, “NO! Must remain in physical body! Must maintain material Consciousness!”

        Not that I think you should listen to this in a room, with the lights off, or anything!

  7. Posted December 16, 2012 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Dear Fourmyle,

    Fair enough. That’s not my view, nor the traditionalist view, but it’s certainly plausible. It’s similar to what the Baha’is believe.

    I’m aware of Michael Cremo – it was “Forbidden Archaeology” that first caused me to question evolution, since his arguments are much more thorough and persuasive than those of the Christian creationists. Cremo, or Drutakarma Dasa (his initiated name), is also a Gaudiya Vaishnava (Krishna devotee), which is what I was for a short time.

    Most people are convinced that Sathya Sai Baba was a fraud, by the way, and very possibly a pedophile. The only reason he garners a lot of respect in India and in Hollywood is because of his humanitarian work.

    • Fourmyle of Ceres
      Posted December 16, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

      John Morgan in blockquote:

      I’m aware of Michael Cremo – it was “Forbidden Archaeology” that first caused me to question evolution, since his arguments are much more thorough and persuasive than those of the Christian creationists. Cremo, or Drutakarma Dasa (his initiated name), is also a Gaudiya Vaishnava (Krishna devotee), which is what I was for a short time.

      Cremo forced me to deal with the questions of devolution, as well; how do we fall back, and what must we do to return To The Stars the btter for our having been here, and the Earth better, for our having been here?

      Most people are convinced that Sathya Sai Baba was a fraud, by the way, and very possibly a pedophile. The only reason he garners a lot of respect in India and in Hollywood is because of his humanitarian work.

      I will only take issue with that to make three quick points:

      One, Sai Baba said, “When you see Me, you see what you expect to see when you see God.” My Mentor in spiritual issues said Sai Baba would clumsily fake pulling cheap jewelry from inside his throne, “clumsily” dropping it, simply performing His Duty as the Mirror of God for the person meeting Him.

      Two, Sai Baba also said, “I have no need for an advocate. If anyone has questions about Me, simply ask me. I will always answer them.”

      He calls his little efforts in this area “parlor tricks,” used to capture the attention o the Children. There is a famous video of Sai Baba putting his hands and arms into a vase held over His head, where he manifests nine cubic yards of vibhutti from the empty jar – with, as a showman aside, his sleeves rolled up.

      These are “trinkets, trash, and parlor games” for the Avatar, who said, “By whatever name ou call God, if you call on God, I will answer,” and “I give you what you want, until you want what only I have to offer.”

      Now, THAT is a metapolitical perspective!

      Three, wasn’t Savitri residing not too far from one of Sai’s temporal residences? Is there any record of her having met with Him, perhaps even seeking darshan?

      Thank you for your thoughtful, considered comments.

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