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Punching Right

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The goal of White Nationalism is to create sovereign homelands for all white nations that aspire to self-determination. Which means nothing less than halting and reversing the globalizing and homogenizing trends that are enthralling the whole planet and dragging it toward its doom. We are trying to turn the world around, to move the whole cultural and political spectrum in our direction. 

Archimedes claimed that he could move the world if given a lever and a place to stand. Where we stand is our basic goal: white survival and flourishing. On this there can be no compromise. Our lever is the movement itself. Although our ultimate end is absolute and unchanging, our means have to be maximally supple and pragmatic. Basically: by whatever means necessary.

We live in a pluralistic and democratic society, in which there are many different groups and shades of opinion, all of which matter to some extent (although some obviously matter more than others). Thus, to shift the whole white world in our direction, we need to establish lines of influence to every white constituency and shade of opinion. We need to colonize every niche in the cultural and political ecosystem with pro-white alternatives. Then we need to reel them in.

Once we establish the hegemony of pro-white ideas throughout the culture, the political system will naturally fall in line. We will have the usual range of parties and the usual political debates. But it won’t really matter which party gets into office, because pro-white values will be sacrosanct. Policies promoting the degradation and destruction of our race will simply no longer be options.

This means that the pro-white movement should be as pluralistic as the society we are trying to change. We will be united by our common goal of racial salvation. But we will have all sorts of differences on less essential issues, like style and tactics, as well as the inevitable personality clashes.

So how do we handle these disagreements?

One suggestion in our circles is that we should never fight among ourselves. We should never “punch right” or disavow one another but instead present a united front to the world. This seems reasonable. When you are under attack, you should strive to unify your camp and sow discord among your enemies.

But there are important caveats.

First, there is a difference between physical fighting and the battle of ideas. If our people are being assaulted, doxed, or persecuted by the state, we should always rally to their aid, regardless of differences of personality or principle.

But there is a caveat here too: our resources are limited and our cause serious. We cannot, therefore, be held hostage to the most reckless and selfish among us, people who commit crimes or flout basic principles of operational security. Showing solidarity to such people rewards vice and penalizes virtue. Intelligence agencies regularly disavow spies who go rogue or allow themselves to be captured. We should take ourselves just as seriously and be equally ruthless with failure.

Second, in the battle of ideas, there is no sense in demanding that we present a united front, particularly on issues where there are real disagreements of principle. Again, our aim is the hegemony of pro-white ideas. We wish to change the whole cultural and political spectrum. Which requires that we engage the whole cultural and political spectrum. Which means that we cannot agree with each other on every issue, nor can we hide our disagreements. Indeed, declaring our disagreements is how we differentiate our approaches before the public.

Furthermore, as both Ramzpaul and Andy Nowicki have argued, presenting a united front allows the movement to be hijacked by the most reckless elements. If someone declares that White Nationalists are all Satanists or Nazis, then if you disagree, it would be stupid to remain silent on the principle of not “punching right,” because everyone would assume that your silence means agreement.

I have argued that our movement needs to cultivate many different voices addressing many different audiences and employing many different strategies. So obviously they can’t all say the same thing. We have to disagree with each other openly. We have to set boundaries openly. We have to criticize one another openly. Being open and frank about our differences is, therefore, essential to the growth of our cause.

But there are good and bad ways of stating disagreements. The good way is to adopt a civil and charitable tone, to give the most generous possible reading of an opposed position, and then offer sound reasons (facts and valid arguments) for the superiority of one’s own view. The bad way is to adopt a paranoid and aggressive tone, to give jaundiced readings of opposed positions, and to play fast and loose with facts and logic.

Perhaps worst vice in our circles is accusing one’s opponents of being “controlled opposition” or enemy agents without adequate evidence. Mike Cernovich has said it about Richard Spencer. Ramzpaul and Colin Liddell have said it about Andrew Anglin. Weev has said it about Nathan Damigo. Gavin McInnes tosses the accusation around as well.

Usually, the argument runs like this. X is a known enemy agent, and Y behaves just like X. Therefore, Y is an enemy agent. But this does not follow. Enemy agents say stupid things, commit crimes, start rumors, and sabotage organizations. But, unfortunately, so do a lot of sincere people. The fact that some people are indisputably controlled opposition is not evidence that any given person is controlled opposition just because you don’t like the cut of his jib. Thus one needs more evidence than just suspicions and analogies to responsibly declare someone to be working for the enemy.

“Not punching right” is an absurd principle, but calling people informants without evidence should be an absolute taboo — right up there with doxing our own people to settle petty scores — as it undermines the trust that is the foundation of every functional movement. The enemy spends a great deal of time sowing distrust in our ranks. So the suspicion of being an enemy agent should fall back on anyone who throws around that charge without evidence. They stand convicted by their own flimsy standards of evidence. And if we point this out long enough, we might just extinguish the behavior altogether.

I am on record agreeing with the substance of Liddell’s and Ramzpaul’s criticisms of Anglin’s approach to White Nationalism (here, here, and here). But I have no reason to believe that Anglin is insincere. And there’s nothing Liddell or Ramzpaul can say to make him go away. So we might as well find a way to coexist and actually benefit from one another. Let’s state our disagreements like civilized men, so Anglin can make me look more moderate and reasonable, and I can make him look edgier and more radical. As long as we bring our respective audiences closer to white survival, then in terms of strategies and style, diversity is actually a strength.

 

 

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76 Comments

  1. LCAC
    Posted December 14, 2016 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Actually I think a bigger long term problem are civic nationalists, liberals are easier to deal with since they have the tendency to be self defeating, it is a lot harder to argue why a white female marrying an Indian/chinese PhD is bad just because the child will turn out mix race, or why mass immigration by Asians are bad, or why pro trump Asians or Hispanics should be kept out of a country just because of their skin colour.

    • R.P. Diddell
      Posted December 17, 2016 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

      Arguing against white males race mixing with Asians and high caste Indians is even harder and is much worse by the numbers than the pairing you mention.

      Even our movement is plagued with race mixing males who talk tough against race mixing until the time comes to address their waifu.

  2. LCAC
    Posted December 14, 2016 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    What about ladyaodh (whoever he/she/it ) is, he/she/it has 19.8k followers, not that large, but still noteworthy in that there are basically ZERO prominent WN, also noteworthy in that except for being a WN, he/she/it is basically a textbook feminist.

  3. Lew
    Posted December 12, 2016 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Andrew Anglin, according to his critics, is at the center of what amounts to a mind of conspiracy theory. Maybe it doesn’t rise to the level of David Icke. But it does approach the outlandish in a lot of ways.

    One the one hand, his critics claim (using this for the sake of argument only) he is not very bright. This, I think, is exactly where their hodgepodge of claims, assertions, etc. crosses the event horizon into contradiction and reveals something telling that doesn’t make any sense.

    On the other hand, Anglin must be, if the critics’ claims are true, what amounts to a master manipulator and schemer at the hub of a cabal to sabotage WNsm. He has been said to be on the financial take from the Jews, presumably acting on their orders to ruin WNsm. At the same time, he has been said to run a team of writers in a kind of boiler-room operation, while personally writing/editing/publishing the nationalist equivalent of pornography with the intent to capture a large audience of young white men and get them wasting their time mentally masturbating and on an FBI watch list.

    The claim is being made that all of this is a conscious strategy that presumably was planned in advance with Jews, that was implemented, that is fine-tuned over time depending on the news of the day and that has proven to be very effective.

    That’s quite a resume of accomplishments for someone who isn’t very smart.

    One problem here is people who believe in conspiracy theories never accept disconfirmation of their theories. All counter-points, arguments, etc. are just more evidence of a conspiracy.

    Confirmation bias is especially a problem because it leads people prone to conspiracy theorizing and hobby-horsing into the pitfall of not seeking alternative explanations for whatever it is they think proves the conspiracy.

    So explanations like we use ironic Nazism to undermine the taboo get ignored because it’s a credible alternative explanation to the notion it’s being done to turn off normals. The Nazi taboo might seem unassailable right now, but you know what? That was true about the racism taboo for a long time. And the racism taboo is coming down.

  4. Captainchaos
    Posted December 11, 2016 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    When race-mixing trash (not naming any names) tells me that I am to forsake the unerringly heroic legacy of National Socialism to avoid offending him and his fellow degenerate cowards my response to him is that he can burn in hell.

  5. Lew
    Posted December 11, 2016 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    Just on the chance there is someone reading here who is not clear on the facts about Golden Dawn:

    This man is Ilias Kasidiaris, their second in command.

    This man is Nikos Michaloliakos, their founder and leader, speaking about supposed Nazi crimes against the Jews on national television when the media brought them up to shame him and try to get him to cuck. This is what not cucking on the tough questions looks like. Michaloliakos didn’t bring it up. He didn’t lead with it. But when the media tried to tag him with it, he didn’t cuck.

    This dapper group is Golden Dawn’s elected delegation.

  6. Petronius
    Posted December 11, 2016 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    That thing about the alleged “popularity” of DS: it is not just the quantity of your audience that matters, but also the quality. I wonder to what kind of people that sort of shtick actually appeals. “Tapping into emotions and primal instincts” can be done in good/productive or bad/destructive ways. As history shows, it is actually pretty easy to corrupt a good and legitimate idea and turn it into something nasty that can end up just as bad or worse than the things it is fighting against. I think a serious study of history shows that this is just what happened to historical NS. (Most Americans who get infatuated with NS often haven’t got the slightest idea about German history, German people and what life was really like in 1920’s-40’s Germany apart from comic book versions, be they anti- or pro-NS). Remember the famous Nietzsche quote about fighting with monsters.

    It’s not only that it is apparently wrongheaded and out of touch with reality to think that the same things, ideologies, methods or symbols could work today as they did in post WWI Europe and Germany. It’s a fact that after decades of hollywoodisation and demonisation anything related to NS has today become a magnet for kooks, f’ck-ups, sectarians, psychos and people poisoned with resentment who dwell in delusional fantasies of power and genocide. It is precisely the “demonic” allure that attracts them, and hence their ambivalence about the holocaust (it never happened and is a vicious lie, but there should be another one soon). What DS promotes is toxic and nihilistic, and there is something destructive and deeply nihilistic about weev and Anglin. I often think weev, who certainly is an interesting character, could be on any side, just to f*ck with people as hard as possible, like a natural born terrorist out of some 19th century Russian novel. TRS as well has very negative tendencies. Obsessive ttraction to NS almost always seems to be related with a “black pill” overdose. See for example what happened to Chechar; reading his genocide advocating blog feels like gazing into a cosmic dark hole, and that is probably what he has done too much.

    Furthermore, DS seemingly loves to punch “to the right” (or, I don’t know, perceived left) like a schoolyard bully and deals smears and insults against anyone they deem to be too soft on a regular basis. That’s certainly not “stating disagreements like civilized men”. During the Heilgate controversy the comment sections 0f Altright sites were full of 1488 squads who tried to cuck-name everybody into submission who didn’t agree with them or who critised Spencer’s behaviour in Washington. Their attempts to capture the altright brand and turn it into full Nazi are not very productive either, and there is often quite a lot of pleasure in dragging down, discrediting and smearing others going here (I know its cool now to call this “trolling” and not question it). So, even though there is no evidence, that this is controlled opposition, they are clearly doing the SPLC’s (etc). business here by playing exactly the bogeyman our enemies want.

    • Leon
      Posted December 11, 2016 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

      Well put. Those are my thoughts exactly.

  7. Lew
    Posted December 10, 2016 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    Politics is always about the next generation, not the current one. Just in terms of simple utility, if it is true that TRS/TDS and the DS have captured the younger set, this fight was over before Ramzpaul and Colin Liddell wrote their points.

    • Colin Liddell
      Posted December 11, 2016 at 12:57 am | Permalink

      It’s not us you have to fight. It’s the Leftists, the globalists, and the multiculturalists, and it’s not me or RamZPaul you will need on your side, but a sizeable percentage of Normies. Those are the people you will have to reach. Good luck with your 0.01% points.

      Also, I hope you haven’t been lured into shitposting too much 1488 crap on DS or anywhere else because you can be sure it is all forwarded to the (((proper authorities))) and will be used to stunt any future prospects you have. As for me, I’m old enough not to need to worry about that and have a massive FY fund. Most of the young kids you refer to have nothing and will be sorely compromised by LARPing as Nazis. So, spare a thought for those poor saps.

      • Greg Johnson
        Posted December 11, 2016 at 1:04 am | Permalink

        Thernovich uses the same concern troll: the Alt Right is full of feds. You’ll ruin your career!

      • Lew
        Posted December 11, 2016 at 9:22 am | Permalink

        I don’t post at the DS and rarely post at TRS but for cultural reasons not because I think they’re suspect. With the exception of Kevin MacDonald, every noteworthy writer/activist in the United States has been accused of being a homo, a Fed or a Jew, one of the Big Three — homo, Fed, Jew — or, if not one of those things, of running a scam, having an agenda or being motivated by envy. There would be no one to listen to, and no where to participate, if people ran away every time someone made an accusation.

  8. Posted December 10, 2016 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    I find it interesting that Andrew Anglin has stated here that Colin Liddell is not a racial nationalist. If that were the case, I certainly would have nothing to do with him. I also find Anglin’s keenness to tie White Nationalism to neo-Nazism to be very questionable. Even here, he is stating that they’re one and the same thing. They are not. The colour bar was in place long before the NSDAP was ever thought of. I am a White Nationalist, but have no interest in National Socialism, neo-Nazism or whatever.

    I also find it very strange that a so-called White Nationalist prefers women from the Philippines to White women. And that Wikileaks video of Anglin with that Philippina is from at the earliest autumn 2011, which is apparently the same time he says here he was investigating the Golden Dawn and even though on Stormfront, he says it was in the mid-2000s. Interesting. Even more interesting is this quotation from one of Anglin’s articles: “Your worst enemy is not Jews, White Man, but your own females.” He really does not seem to like White women.

  9. Posted December 10, 2016 at 6:32 am | Permalink

    The most valuable comment here is in the article itself:

    [quote]”I am on record agreeing with the substance of Liddell’s and Ramzpaul’s criticisms of Anglin’s approach to White Nationalism (here, here, and here). But I have no reason to believe that Anglin is insincere. And there’s nothing Liddell or Ramzpaul can say to make him go away. So we might as well find a way to coexist and actually benefit from one another. Let’s state our disagreements like civilized men, so Anglin can make me look more moderate and reasonable, and I can make him look edgier and more radical. As long as we bring our respective audiences closer to white survival, then in terms of strategies and style, diversity is actually a strength.”[unquote]

    This is sense. It sums up my view about political methods and highlights the dangers of tactical chauvinism. Personally, I would favour a moderate, Joe Owens-style approach to practical politics, but complimented by the type of militancy practised by TDS, National Action and so on. So I stand somewhat in the middle of this argument.

    I enjoy reading The Daily Stormer. I have no idea if Andrew Anglin is a spy, a Jew, an alien from outer space, or just a man from Ohio who runs a popular news site – and frankly, I don’t care one way or the other.

    But as somebody who visits TDS almost daily (and sometimes comments there) – mostly for light relief, but also to learn from some of the serious material – Anglin is palpably genuine. This is manifest from the way he manages the site and interacts with commenters. Of course, I must allow that I could be mistaken, but if so, that will not be my mistake, it will be Anglin’s. He will have just been wasting his own life and his own time. In the event, whatever is the motivation, it’s a very funny website and the more serious articles are well-written and insightful. Anglin is to be praised for his achievement.

    Let’s just, for a moment, assume that the conspiracy theorists on here are right. It occurs to me that if The Daily Stormer is a set-up, then whoever is behind this is on very dangerous ground indeed (from a non-white point-of-view). National Socialism is an appealing ideology, and if you oppose it by pointing the way to it, you are taking a risk. Why take that risk? Yes, you can portray moderate Nationalists as Naarrrtzees, but that’s not quite the same thing as building an electronic media for irredentist Nazism, accumulating hundreds of thousands of followers, with the potential to educate the more intelligent among these followers and guide them towards a more erudite position. Why do that?

    Maybe this is a generation thing? Boomers, like Colin Liddell, are going to find it difficult to understand Anglin’s strategy and even the humour. I’m Generation X and I have been brought up in an environment (Britain) saturated with anti-white leftism and the underpinning assumption that National Socialism is evil. But I am fortunate in that I have always been a leftfield thinker, whereas Liddell comes across more as a traditional type of Rightist and might be shocked and disconcerted when confronted with an affirming and super-ironic take on Nazism.

  10. B.Bitterburg
    Posted December 10, 2016 at 4:33 am | Permalink

    As a poster of TDS and many other sites under different names, I would like to add something to this discussion. There is no such thing as high politics or culture in a democratic system. You either appeal to the working and middle class and the young, immature shapeless people, or you do not.

    CC is one of my favourite websites and I like reading pieces by Greg Johnson, but the majority of the White people in America and Europe are completely incapable of reading something on an intellectual level, looking at it from a neutral point of view and using logic to come to reasonable conclusions.

    This includes many people who have seen a form of higher education, because most forms of higher education are either used to educate someone in holding a job or are designed to teach people the “right” way to think.

    Most people do not think, they feel.

    In that sense, there are only two ways to influence the masses.

    1. Make entertainment with a political message.
    2. Make religion with a political message.

    Always making sure to play on the emotions first and on the mind second.

    TDS and other websites like it are the only ones who do this in an adequate manner by using the first method, nobody is really doing the second method adequately, though this might change if we are able to make the leap from a worldview to a religion.

    Any website which is intellectual, philosophical or cultural can influence the sphere of entertainment and popular religion, but it will always be secondary to it.

    Politics and culture are the domain of the People and their instinctive forces, not a group of academics, intellectuals and journalists.

    You don’t have to use nazi imagery, but at the end of the day, you can not be respectable, because the people are not respectable, they are a vessel of violent and sexual energies, primitive myths, superstitions and fears, lots of fears.

  11. Colin Liddell
    Posted December 9, 2016 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Another important point to be made is this: few of us would care if Anglin and whoever backs him were doing their “gas ovens comedy routine” over where it belongs in the 4chan Neo-Nazi corner. But the problem is of course that he is constantly tying what he does to other people who are totally unlike him by calling himself “Alt-Right” or even “White nationalist” when the obvious designation would be “Neo-Naziist.” At the same time the Stormer is constantly stating or implying that Alt-Right or nationalist figures are “Nazi.” Just look at how often they have used the word “Nazi” in conjunction with Richard Spencer in recent weeks. Did they get permission from Spencer to do this. No, they are just operating in this respect like the mainstream media. For those of us who are more outward looking and focused on reanimating nationalism as a populist movement rather than an online Nazi freakshow that in itself is highly suspicious behaviour.

    • Posted December 10, 2016 at 10:34 am | Permalink

      Another important point to be made is this: few of us would care if Anglin and whoever backs him were doing their “gas ovens comedy routine” over where it belongs in the 4chan Neo-Nazi corner. But the problem is of course that he is constantly tying what he does to other people who are totally unlike him by calling himself “Alt-Right” or even “White nationalist” when the obvious designation would be “Neo-Naziist.”

      This is just another lie.

      You attacked me, called me a secret agent a year ago, months before I ever used the term Alt-Right, saying that I was turning off “white Jews” and hurting the movement by making Holocaust jokes.

      As far back as June of 2014, you attacked me for not believing in the Holocaust.

      http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/search/label/Andrew%20Anglin

      I have only used the term “Alt-Right” since late 2015, when the meaning changed with the #altright hashtag on twitter. It had previously been associated with you and your movement, which is pro-Jewish and pro-homosexual, so I did not use it. My own people then took it on – this caught on through a twitter trend, and so had a completely different meaning – and I began using it.

      Why don’t you make a list of people who you believe should be placed in these different groups of yours?

      Surely, TRS would have to be placed with me in the “Neo-Naziist” group, no? We have virtually identical messages and beliefs. Spencer is out, because he invoked Nazi imagery during a speech. Greg Johnson is pretty much an outright National Socialist.

      So the remaining members of the Alt-Right would be you, Ramz, Jared Taylor and Ashley Goldberg, correct?

      At the same time the Stormer is constantly stating or implying that Alt-Right or nationalist figures are “Nazi.” Just look at how often they have used the word “Nazi” in conjunction with Richard Spencer in recent weeks. Did they get permission from Spencer to do this. No, they are just operating in this respect like the mainstream media. For those of us who are more outward looking and focused on reanimating nationalism as a populist movement rather than an online Nazi freakshow that in itself is highly suspicious behaviour.

      So you had previously attacked me for not supporting Richard Spencer, now you’re attacking me for supporting him.

      wow just wow i can’t even.

      Again, this vitriol and condescension is astonishing from someone as low as you. You have accomplished nothing in this movement. You live in a non-white country with your non-white wife, you have little to no idea what is actually going on with white people in white countries and you have zero stake in the future of the white race. What relevance are your opinions?

      You are a hobbiest. And you are a joke. You are in no position to lecture anyone.

  12. Jar Jar
    Posted December 9, 2016 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    The comments on this article are more interesting than the article itself.

    It seems to me that no matter what, one should operate within the bounds of the law. Additionally, one should be fully engaged as a good citizen at all times. It may be a good idea for Alt-Right organizations to state up front that they will report a person who is a credible threat to lives and property. This cuts down on any accusations of being a “shill” as everyone knows up front that illegality is a not tolerated. Additionally it is a good idea to not associate with criminals or those who lack judgement. Checking out tattoos and the like seems a good idea if you want a serious organization.

    A good postmortem on an organization that failed badly can be found by Juan Mann’s article about Ranch Rescue, a border patrol group active in 2002.

    http://www.vdare.com/articles/lessons-from-the-ranch-rescue-fiasco

    To succeed, this movement must win hearts and minds. There are many ways to do this, but illegality is not one of them.

  13. Posted December 9, 2016 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    This article is turning into a good opportunity for members of the Cause to clear the air on their squabbles, it seems. I say, let it all out until the hatchets are buried!

    Wouldn’t be surprised if Greg foresaw this happening, that master schemester!

  14. weev
    Posted December 8, 2016 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    I’d like to give the chance to Nathan Damigo to make amends for creating a culture amongst his people where it is acceptable to be an informant. Calling the FBI at any time is unacceptable, as is threatening to do so. Doubling down when confronted with the fact that that’s informing, and then going into long justifications about why it is acceptable to inform on people even less so. It creates a culture where it is okay to knock.

    Given Damigo’s past vocal support of traitorous calls to the FBI I feel he should make a public pledge to never call the FBI on anyone in a pro-white movement and to work towards a world where traitorous snitches and their families are brought to suffer for working with ZOG. He should declare federal agents and cooperators to be what they are: miserable, low life scum of the earth that a just world would torture and leave bleeding out in a ditch.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted December 8, 2016 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

      This isn’t helping. And your own credibility can be shredded with the same sorts of inconclusive arguments. I’ve spent many hours with Nathan, and I trust him more than most people in this cause.

      • weev
        Posted December 8, 2016 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

        There is only one answer as to when it is appropriate to call the FBI and give them information:

        Never. Period. At all.

        Do not talk to the police. This should be standard policy everywhere. Tell everyone you know not to talk to the police. Nathan has told his people it is appropriate to call the police at times. This is not okay. I’d like him to say otherwise.

  15. Colin Liddell
    Posted December 8, 2016 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Are we still arguing about whether shackling the future-orientated essence of the 14 Words to the dead and toxic corpse of 88 is a good thing or not? Sheeesh!

    I really don’t care if Anglin is a shill or a moron or a lump of putty I found under my armpit.

    My whole critique of the Daily Stormer and those who cosy up to him (elements of TRS and even Greg Johnson to some extent in this article) is that he acts like a Platonic ideal of a shill, but then he might just be a special type of moron. Who knows, who cares.

    The takeaway is that Nazism – thanks to its taboo nature, which is not going away – is, has been, and always will be a nice little way to drive traffic and make a wee bit of money on the internet. But at the same time it will be always be a massive dead end for any White Nationalist or European identitarian movement.

    Don’t trust me, just look at the numbers. Robert Randsell, strongly supported by the Stormer, got 53 votes (essentially close family members) – 50-fucking-3!!! – and even David Duke only got a measly 3% in perhaps the most race-conscious state in the Union.

    The evidence is overwhelming. Overtly Nazi movements get shit numbers in any elections, except in Israel where Likud do quite well.

    In Europe all the big nationalist parties have successfully de-Nazified. Some have tried and couldn’t – the BNP and the NPD – and have promptly disappeared.

    Politics, remember, is the art of the possible, not the art of jerking off on the internet. The DS is essentially the political equivalent of a porn site for frustrated, morally, and emotionally incontinent beta-male losers.

    This debate therefore is do you want to make a little bit of money on the internet (but not enough to live on without subs from the ADL) or do you want White Nationalism to do rather well. I know which side I am on. Do you?

    • Lew
      Posted December 9, 2016 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

      It’s not my intent to start a difficult exchange with you, but in reply to this comment I can only repeat my point. I may be mistaken, but I don’t think that I am. I believe I am recalling correctly that Ricky Vaughn before he was banned did occasionally link to the DS on his twitter feed, and he acquired almost 70,000 followers and was deemed to be in the top 100 election influencers. It suggests to me that when it comes to the DS, context matters a lot and that when the content is packaged the right way for the right readers a lot of people must find that they like the DS or maybe don’t care for it but are not offended by either.

      That’s me actually. I don’t care for the style of the DS myself, never have, and in some cases speaking as a father of daughters I don’t care for the substance either. But I am not the DS intended reader. I appreciate that the DS is going for a younger, more radical set that understands the younger generation’s cultural world in a way Gen X folks like me can’t.

      I also think the success of the Golden Dawn party in Greece disproves your claim that all of the successful right-wing parties in Europe have distanced themselves from so-called Nazism. Nikolas Michaloliakos, in fact, flat out says there were no gas chambers. It is definitely the case that Golden Dawn achieved success in mainstream politics despite drawing inspiration from what looks to me, at least from my admittedly flawed vantage point as an American, a form of national socialism and fascism. Golden Dawn was marching to power until they came under an all-front attack by the system. The takeaway for me is that the available evidence suggests that context matters a lot and NS might or might not be a show stopper for many normals depending on the circumstances.

      • Greg Johnson
        Posted December 9, 2016 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

        My question about NS groups like Golden Dawn is: Does their ideology basically box them into permanent marginality? Sure, they might grow to a certain size, but does NS create hard upper limits to growth that would not be there if they did not carry Nazi baggage? My gut tells me that NS is unnecessary for a WN party and an absolute limit on upward growth.

        • Posted December 9, 2016 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

          My question about NS groups like Golden Dawn is: Does their ideology basically box them into permanent marginality? Sure, they might grow to a certain size, but does NS create hard upper limits to growth that would not be there if they did not carry Nazi baggage? My gut tells me that NS is unnecessary for a WN party and an absolute limit on upward growth.

          I spent a lot of time in Greece in 2011-2013, going there to check out the Golden Dawn and then ending up staying and working a bit at a hostel.

          Basically, the “Nazi” slur isn’t the issue. It’s just “racism.” The people who are about such things don’t say that they’re against GD because they’re Nazis, they say they’re against them because they’re racist. And it’s really not even that, as the key problem. It’s that the media frames it as though all hell will break loose if they take over the government. Like that society will just totally collapse. This has more to do with their economic policy than anything else, as people are scared of letting go of Europe and the euro and the fear-mongering the media engages in.

          Basically, there are a lot of people who hate Jews and immigrants who dislike Golden Dawn because of pretty low-level media propaganda about how the world will end if they take over the government.

          Greece is a very small country where relatively few people have fluent English, so the old television and newspaper – literal print newspaper – media is extremely powerful.

          Still, Golden Dawn has somewhere between 7 and 10 percent of the vote, and this is going up.

          Basically, there is little difference between “Nazi” and “racist” labels, given that the language has been used so interchangeably. I think Liddell is actually promoting civic nationalist parties like the FPO and UKIP, because if you try to distinguish between racial nationalists and Nazis in terms of actual political parties, you are really splitting hairs. The only real, identifiable difference is between civic and racial nationalists.

          Colin can further elaborate on his position here, of course, but I believe he is trying to argue not against Golden Dawn, but against some imagined Rockwell-style Nazi party which doesn’t actually even exist, and then is saying that the only option is civic nationalist parties (FPO, UKIP). He did mention the BNP, but they were not a Nazi party at all, just a racial nationalist party.

          I don’t think that anyone here really agrees that civic nationalism is viable for what we’re trying to do (besides Liddell and Ramz, who have radically different views than the mainstream of the Alt-Right).

          Anyhow, to answer the original question, if Golden Dawn had all of the same positions that they have, minus the occasional reference to the Holocaust having never happened, I don’t think their numbers would be different at all. I also don’t think there numbers would be much better if they had a civic nationalist/euroskeptic platform, given the nature of Greece. GD came in third place last election after a far-left and centrist party.

          If we’re going to talk about countries that are as different from America as Greece is though, we might as well talk about the Philippines, which just elected a president on the promise that he was going to murder hundreds of thousands of people in the streets.

          There is no data-driven reasoning for the idea that extremist parties cannot be elected in any country. But we are absolutely making an irrelevant distinction here when we talk about racist vs Nazi political parties, and I believe that the discussion is being poisoned by Colin Liddell claiming that someone (me, I guess?) is planning to launch a political party of costumed Nazis.

          Golden Dawn do not wear Nazi costumes, they just have a nationalist-socialist platform and will deny the Holocaust if it’s brought up.

        • Lew
          Posted December 9, 2016 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

          You always make a lot good points, too. I suppose I’m not the right person to ask because I’m sympathetic in the abstract to a lot of fascist and NS ideas. Even though I don’t think of myself as NS and don’t believe there is any real value in so-called “non-ironic” Nazism in most contexts, much less in Hollywood Nazism, images of Hitler, Swastikas and Breker statues don’t offend me even though the Nazis did some bad things (who hasn’t). The idea of semi-fascist control of the economy and crushing capitalists with an iron fist I find appealing. Passages from Julius Streicher and Mein Kampf don’t offend me. Passionate speeches by Hitler don’t offend me either. Most of the time when I watch a speech by Hitler, I come away trying to figure out what he said that he isn’t true — or wasn’t true at the time for his situation. Especially, as each day replaces the last, it seems that events are vindicating his views. Thus, I don’t have any particular emotional reaction to Hitler and NS and read/absorb them the same way I read Schopenhauer or Plato or John C. Calhoun or look at a Gothic cathedral — you mine the historical value, learn the lessons, admire the aesthetics and move on without bogging yourself down with a lot of negative, hysterical emotion, and with the understanding none of those things are a model for the here and now.

          To the extent sites like TRS and DS drain the life out of the taboo and move people toward a less emotional response to what amounts to history that doesn’t matter except as history, those sites have a lot of value. So I’m sticking with my point until someone explains to me how Ricky Vaughn got so much traction if normals are so repulsed by the DS.

          • Zanting
            Posted December 10, 2016 at 5:46 am | Permalink

            Keep in mind that Jared Wyand on Twitter more or less went full 14/88 naming the Jew among other things, we followed each other before he was recently banned, his popularity actually increased after this. The only people dismissing him were essentially Jews, most people supported him, it is a favorable position to have which must be pushed openly.

            Follower count of around 130,000 by the way.

    • Henrik Kaarto
      Posted December 9, 2016 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

      Colin, you’ve burned down many bridges with commenters on your own site. I honestly cannot think of anyone who has linked to an article in your domain in well over a year.

      If I take TRS and DS as guides, no one really cares about the content of your site. Your opinions are just not that important.

      Thanks,

      Henrik.

      • Colin Liddell
        Posted December 9, 2016 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

        So you’re basically saying “Don’t say what you think and believe or the sheep will stop bleating in unison with you.” Good to see how you arrive at your opinions. Very rigorous and intellectually convincing. Actually, links or no links our stats have soared and keep hitting all-time highs, so I think you know where you can stick your concern trolling.

    • Posted December 9, 2016 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

      Hi Colin,

      Glad you’re here.

      As with Ramz, I have had a hard time getting any direct interaction with you, so this is a great opportunity to set the record straight.

      Firstly though, I want to say that I was a bit shocked to find that you reposted Ramz’ new slander claims against me on your blog, even after I had responded to them and asked for proof. The fact that you would just pick up on any random, made-up attacks on me and spread them certainly implies that you have absolutely zero interest in truth, and simply are waging a hostile war against me personally, for reasons which are not in the least bit clear.

      Of course, your previous attacks demonstrated this as well, but it’s important to me that it be crystal clear to everyone who cares that your only goal is to personally attack me, and your lines of attack are framed around that desire.

      As to your post:

      Are we still arguing about whether shackling the future-orientated essence of the 14 Words to the dead and toxic corpse of 88 is a good thing or not? Sheeesh!

      No one is asking you to shackle anything to anything.

      Young people have created a new white nationalist movement which has gotten very popular. You and Ramz, as entryists, have come along and demanded a right to control and direct it.

      I have never attacked you. I have never even mentioned you, until you began a campaign of slander against you, and even then I did not attack you, but simply tried to explain my position. You pretended as though I had not explained it, and continued to slander me, to lie, to misrepresent.

      I really don’t care if Anglin is a shill or a moron or a lump of putty I found under my armpit.

      My whole critique of the Daily Stormer and those who cosy up to him (elements of TRS and even Greg Johnson to some extent in this article) is that he acts like a Platonic ideal of a shill, but then he might just be a special type of moron. Who knows, who cares.

      There you have it. You don’t know if I’m a shill, but you publicly accused me of this. So you are admitting that you made the allegation that I am a federal agent simply as a way to personally defame me. Certainly it was not based on evidence, as you have presented none.

      I find it ironic that your position is that you are more responsible and professional than I am, and yet I would never make a mockery of this movement by throwing around the accusation that someone is a federal agent because I don’t like them.

      Your very attacks on my own seriousness and devotion to the cause demonstrate that you have neither.

      The takeaway is that Nazism – thanks to its taboo nature, which is not going away – is, has been, and always will be a nice little way to drive traffic and make a wee bit of money on the internet. But at the same time it will be always be a massive dead end for any White Nationalist or European identitarian movement.

      You claim that the taboo nature of Nazism is not going away – this is a baseless assertion. You would have to provide data as to why you believe this is impossible.

      I have data. I have created an extremely successful website that includes Nazi imagery, along with jokes and entertainment, which has desensitized tens of thousands of people to Nazi imagery.

      The goal has never been a neo-Nazi revolution, in the sense of men in SS uniforms marching through the streets with swastika flags. I’ve said repeatedly that it is not my goal. You know that.

      I run a website. I do not run a political party. My goal on the website is to push the Overton Window and instill a radical racial consciousness among young people. Nazi imagery is extremely effective for this purpose, because the Jewish system has placed such power in it through decades of portraying it, throughout media and education, as the ultimate symbol of evil. That also makes it the ultimate symbol of rebellion against the system.

      This is to say that the very reason you claim that Nazi imagery shouldn’t be used is the very reason I do use it, which is because it is powerful due to the way the establishment has dealt with it.

      http://www.dailystormer.com/what-is-a-neo-nazi-and-how-can-i-become-one/

      This is something that could be discussed and debated. Maybe I am wrong. But you don’t want to discuss or debate it, instead you just want to chant, over and over and over again, no matter how many times I respond and explain all of this, that I am some moronic skinhead with no idea what I am doing – plus also a federal agent (or is it an ADL agent? I still don’t quite understand).

      You have claimed repeatedly, literally for years, that I believe I will use skinhead Nazism to take over the government, even while I am here saying this isn’t my goal. This again shows that your entire agenda is against me personally, and you don’t care about what you destroy in the process of carrying out this agenda.

      And just like Ramz, you appear to be totally incapable of grasping the fact that people can see what you are doing. Intelligent people know that I am using imagery in a way that appeals to young people for a specific purpose, and that I have been extremely successful with this.

      For the record, my vision of a political movement is something very similar to what Richard Spencer is doing, although I could do with a bit more talk about the Jews.

      Don’t trust me, just look at the numbers. Robert Randsell, strongly supported by the Stormer, got 53 votes (essentially close family members) – 50-fucking-3!!! – and even David Duke only got a measly 3% in perhaps the most race-conscious state in the Union.

      The evidence is overwhelming. Overtly Nazi movements get shit numbers in any elections, except in Israel where Likud do quite well.

      Again, you are claiming that I think Neo-Nazism should be the political platform, even while you know this isn’t the case.

      What is the point of so grossly misrepresenting my positions? If I am wrong and you are right, surely we can speak about these things without the need for all of these lies and slander?

      People know that I am an open and honest person, and that I am always open to discussing things frankly. You appear to be the opposite of this – you sneak around, lie and spread malicious slander, then refuse to confront the person you are slandering.

      I do not run a political party. I run a news website.

      So these are the numbers I’m interested in.

      Here’s your site:

      http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/alternative-right.blogspot.com

      272,076

      Here’s AmRen:

      http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/amren.com

      59,953

      Here’s Vdare:

      http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/vdare.com

      78,600

      Here’s mine:

      http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/dailystormer.com

      18,832

      My ideas and approach are much more popular than yours, period. There is no room to debate this. In the free market of ideas, your product simply does not sell.

      I have created the most popular pro-white publication in history. That is a fact. And you come at me, willing to spread vile, nonsensical lies in order to try and destroy me, and yet you are incapable of even honestly stating why you are doing it?

      People can see this. This is public. People see what you are doing.

      In Europe all the big nationalist parties have successfully de-Nazified. Some have tried and couldn’t – the BNP and the NPD – and have promptly disappeared.

      Why do you continue to claim that I am a political organization, rather than a website?

      What is the purpose of mixing these two things together, if not to simply try and confuse people?

      Do you truly believe the people reading this are that stupid?

      Politics, remember, is the art of the possible, not the art of jerking off on the internet. The DS is essentially the political equivalent of a porn site for frustrated, morally, and emotionally incontinent beta-male losers.

      But I thought it was a place for prison skinhead “Hollywood Nazis”? Wasn’t that your entire argument before? Now it’s frustrated beta males?

      Surely, frustrated beta males and skinhead prison gangs are two pretty different things, no?

      It appears that either you have absolutely no idea what is going on on my website, in which case it is inappropriate for you to speak on it at all, or you will simply use any slander you can think up to attack me and my website.

      Either way, it is clear that you are not a serious person.

      This debate therefore is do you want to make a little bit of money on the internet (but not enough to live on without subs from the ADL) or do you want White Nationalism to do rather well. I know which side I am on. Do you?

      Which side are you on, Colin?

      You live in Japan with your Japanese wife, and you go around lecturing people on how to be proper white nationalists.

      How does this make sense to anyone? You have zero stake in the future of the white race, yet you insist you are the only one with a right to speak on it.

      As far as this continued claim that I am somehow hurting you by doing what I am doing – where is the data for this? Where is the evidence that someone is going to look at what I am doing, be offended by it, and then dismiss what you are doing? This is not intuitive, and given that there is no data to support it, the claim is simply nonsensical.

      In fact, if anything, having someone like me push an extreme position makes the people who you prefer seem more palatable. That is certainly how the left did things. As I have said many, many times, the Weather Underground was never denounced by other left-wing activists. In fact, Bob Dylan wrote songs about them. The homosexual rights movement did not denounce NAMBLA. Black civil rights activists did not denounce the Black Panthers.

      And here – now that we’re finally able to have an exchange, I have been wanting to ask you: why is it that with virtually the entire Alt-Right using ironic Nazi imagery, you have chosen to attack me exclusively?

      This is the same question I’ve asked Ramz (I hope he gets a chance to respond soon). The content of my website is not really any different than the content of a typical TRS podcast. You claimed in one of your attacks that the Holocaust should never be joked about or questioned, yet you have yourself appeared on a radio show called “The Daily Shoah,” which uses an oven as their logo.

      You have singled me out as the subject of your histrionic slander campaign – which now includes promoting the gibberish claim that I wrote on my website that I was in an Aryan gang in prison.

      Why is this, Colin?

      • Colin Liddell
        Posted December 10, 2016 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

        Arguments rely on concision but you ramble on like an old rabbi. There are two points to deal with here. The third one about your Filipina wife, half-caste children, and your big stake in a multiculturalist Jewish-run future we can leave for another time.

        The two points are these: (1) Is the Daily Stormer actually moving the Overton window and smashing the Nazi taboo used to suppress White nationalism, and (2) the degree to which you associate yourself with people who have no wish to be associated with you.

        Thanks for the Alexa rankings, but, assuming they are accurate, you will notice that your site is only number 18,832. Good as this may be for an extremist political website, which clearly has a staff of at least ten full-timers (judging by the amount of content), it is hardly a commanding height from which to redefine the whole moral architecture of the West. That simply isn’t going to happen.

        The Overton window is also a rather outdated concept nowadays, as the internet has effectively shattered the big window into lots of little windows – a small shard of which you may be nudging towards the burnt out husk of Hitler’s bunker..

        The big picture, however, is that Nazism will always remain a toxic brand, lethal to any political ideology or movement that comes within touching distance, and indeed that is its function today and one which you help serve by seeking to attach to everybody from Donald Trump and RamZPaul to Richard Spencer and TRS, who obviously make some of the same mistakes as you but have no wish to go full 1488, The difference here is that some of those Goys actually want to unsock and get off the internet someday and take White identity IRL.

        Anyway, once someone who participates in the type of costume Naziism you promote can get elected or even nearly elected, even to a city council somewhere, then we can talk about the taboo being shattered. We both know that – LULZ aside – that will never happen, and we also both know that even Golden Dawn is not a Nazi movement and that, like ALL SUCCESSFUL NATIONALIST PARTIES, works hard to disassociate itself from Naziism even of the internet variety, In fact they pride themselves on being followers of a man who fought the Nazis – President Metaxas.

        The truth is your site exists in symbiosis with the Nazi taboo, and FEEDS OFF people’s preexisting angers and frustrations with political correctness rather than FEEDING INTO anything positive and constructive, in the process boosting your clickbait numbers.

        You then lure your relatively low-IQ audience of naive Americans and kids into a position of INAUTHENTICITY – thoughtlessly exulting in toxicly anti-PC imagery and commentary and into endorsing 0.01% positions – Gas the Kikes, etc. – that force them to deny these very same sentiments IRL. You effectively impose schizophrenia on them.

        Such inauthenticity is clearly not a Heideggerian position of strength from which to build one’s life. You are thus guilty of creating fractured and weakened individuals, who are forced to live a lie and are unable to integrate their corrupted political views into their lives. This probably also stops a lot of them getting married. Some might see similarities here with harbouring a secret gay identity, but the difference is Naziism is not going to be “liberated” and accepted in the same way as homosexuality is. Gay Lib, BTW, is an interesting if somewhat perverse example of what can be done by a small, marginalized group that works WITHIN the moral architecture of the West to its own “advantage.”

        This is why I think the correct analogy for the Daily Stormer is a porn site, a place where fractured, confused, morally incontinent normies can come and unload a few jollies before slinking back shamefaced to their cucked lifestyles. That too is part of the control mechanism of our young males – corrupt them into inauthentic lusts and weaken them. That is exactly what your site is doing with young, emotionally frustrated White males confused about expressing their LEGITIMATE nationalistic feelings. You are a political porn site, and we all know who runs porn.

        The correct way for nationalism to grow and express itself both politically and metapolitically is in the daylight and without any shame. Put away the political wank socks. White nationalism is not some kinky perversion of the sort the Stormer is clearly promoting, but a legitimate mass movement whose time has clearly come. Nazifying it as you seek to do will delay that moment.

        Interesting question: Which of these two paths – slinking around in the darkness with a fragmented identity or being openly proud with a moral and integrated White nationalist identity – sounds more Aryan, and which one sounds more Jewish? Honestly, which one? Answer that and you will know who runs the Stormer and why.

  16. weev
    Posted December 8, 2016 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    I simply asked Damigo 3 questions on Twitter.

    1) Why does he collect people’s tattoo descriptions and demand to know what other organizations they are members of? “Where’s your tattoos and what gangs are you in” is law enforcement data collection 101.
    2) Why does he tell people he’s going to call the FBI on them in discord? Creating any culture where it’s acceptable to inform on people is purely unacceptable. I wanted him to disavow that statement, but he insists that it acceptable behavior to this day. Why does he create a culture where it is acceptable to call federal authorities on people? Please watch this video to see why this is an extremely bad idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
    3) Why did Damigo receive below the guideline range for his criminal conviction? Under what circumstance was he given leniency?

    If he hadn’t of immediately blocked me when I asked these questions, I’d ask a fourth: why are the sentencing records from that conviction gone from Lexis Nexis, forcing people to apply at El Cajon to get them?

    There’s been a long history of Damigo, and the previous National Youth Front (actual original organization name of Identity Europa) leader Angelo John Gage, trying to get people to dox themselves on camera who didn’t even apply to their organizations so they can’t claim it is part of a vetting process. Ask around. Angelo John Gage was also at the center of a concerted effort with Ramzpaul to try to get people to abandon white nationalism and push “ethnonationalism” instead, destroying pan-white solidarity. Gage’s paycheck actually comes from the government, though he claimed to me that he collected welfare fraud to get it. In our first conversation. Which is also a disturbing red flag.

  17. Posted December 8, 2016 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    So because there are more nonwhites than whites in the world, we should just destroy the world? Geez….talk about ODing on black pills.

    It’ll never really need to be the entire white race versus the entire nonwhite world. When has the entire brown-black-yellow-etc world ever acted as a monolith?

  18. Lew
    Posted December 8, 2016 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    If AA is ever going to aggressively criticized or shunned, I think it ought to be for his long track record of non-ironic, repulsive comments about white women, which exists in a trail people can actually point to without inference or speculation.

    On the other hand, I think there is some evidence the premise that the DS repels normals is not correct. Ricky Vaughn garnered 70,000 followers on twitter before Jews banned his account, and he linked to DS from time to time.

  19. Henrik Kaarto
    Posted December 8, 2016 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    I’m a DS fan. I stopped reading Alt-Right years ago because the content was not to my taste, but I wish them well.

    Ramzpaul, ditto.

    DS was described as “bro tier” by TRS sometime ago. The site’s content has continued to improve and the quality of the comments has as well, indicating that if DS is a fed operation, it’s fooling a lot of above average intelligence whites.

    The people who run the government at whatever level are not very bright and not very competent. If they’ve managed Anglin into a key role for Alt-Right publishing, then it will be the first federal program in my lifetime that actually worked. Everything else the government does is a costly failure.

    One thing I would add — people who are on our team should not allow jealousy or envy at another’s success to lead them down the dark path of infighting. That’s a general principle and I don’t know the motivations of either Liddell or Paul, but both have been weak tea for some time since the rise of TRS and DS. C-C is still the graduate school of white nationalism and I know the younger goys eventually find their way here to get into the more serious meat and potato stuff of white ideology.

    Both DS and TRS have pushed InfoWars into adopting Alt-Right language and entryist tactics. The same cannot be said for the Alt-Right site. Entryism is a form of backhanded compliment and every water filter selling, penis pill popping merchant is desperate to stay relevant in light of the recent growth in white nationalist sentiment. If Anglin is a fed, he’s creating a very serious problem for his handlers because he’s winning bigly.

    TRS larps Nazi all the time and doesn’t get any flack for it from within our movement, probably because the irony is more apparent. (I still don’t know when Anglin is being ironic or not, not with any certainty.) No one would think to blast them for a meteoric rise and the synergy between DS and TRS has been yuuuge. So amazing. If Anglin is that good, then the Death Panel will have been fooled along with the rest of us.

    As to Paul’s criticism of Anglin’s intelligence, I couldn’t disagree more. Anglin has made mistakes in his handling of the press, but he will learn. This is a side effect of experience, but Anglin is certainly intelligent and will continue to improve. He’s been solid in recent interviews, including the Red Ice appearance.

    Paul has been criticized pretty heavily in the bro tier section of the movement and I’ve never felt compelled to pile on, but if the shitposting against Anglin continues and no evidence is adduced for serious accusations, I will turn on him really fast. He’s already become persona non grata for many, but we are all done now with the Milos, Thernovitches, Watsons and Vox Days.

    My own conspiracy theory regarding Anglin is that he’s getting kickbacks for pushing New Balance kicks. That’s how he finances his operation. 🙂

  20. Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Greg,

    I have never called anyone a secret agent. You should either link to where I have done that or print a retraction. I have in fact been the main person saying “don’t ever do this, ever” in regards to throwing around accusations that people are secret agents. It is absolute poison, and I would never do it under any circumstance.

    What I did say about Identity Europa (not even Damigo specifically, just the organization itself) is that I thought it was not appropriate to be asking for pictures of people’s tattoos, and told my own people not to join an organization that was asking for pictures of people’s tattoos. I did not elaborate on that. I do think it is inappropriate, in that it serves no purpose – if they doesn’t want people with tattoos or certain types of tattoos in certain places, they could just specify that on their form. I can’t imagine any reason you would need pictures of people’s tattoos.

    However, the fact that this is something the feds would do is in no way proof that he or whoever came up with that idea (I have no reason to assume or believe Damigo even came up with the idea or created that form) is a fed. And again, I would never, ever, under any circumstance whatsoever, make this claim about anyone. Not publicly.

    And honestly, I think that making the claim should be disqualifying. Just on principle. It is hard to imagine anything more irresponsible.

    We are not playing a baby game here. This is all very serious. And there are of course feds amongst us, and we need to be aware of that, we need to discuss our concerns privately, but throwing around the accusation turns everything into a total circus.

    And for the record, Ramz and Liddell are obviously being disingenuous to the point of absurdity with their claims. They are saying that anyone who believes in Nazism is a fed. Well, I am getting over 4 million unique visits per month now, and one would assume that most of these people visiting the site every day agree more or less with what I’m promoting. So you have hundreds of thousands of people who believe what I believe. I just happened to be the one who created the website, and is a fast enough typer – and clever enough – to keep it running and make it fun.

    In order for the Ramz/Liddell claims to be logical, they would also have to claim that some majority of the over 100 thousand people who visit the site daily are also federal agents.

    It’s very simple – if the only people who believe this are feds than everyone who believes it is a fed. I don’t think Ramz or Liddell are the sharpest cucks in the cuck shed, but even they get that. So they are just lying to defame me.

    And also, I don’t believe that they actually don’t understand what I’m doing, and this that I’m some type of romper stomper skinhead. I know they are clueless boomers, but still, I don’t think it is possible that they simply are incapable of grasping the concept of “ironic Nazism.”

    Back when I was the type of retard who would respond to people with a fraction of my audience, I did respond to Ramz after he called me a secret agent the first time. He read the article. People spammed him with it. But instead of responding, he just made the same claim again. And again. And again. Pretending he just couldn’t grasp it.

    Exactly how Hitler described Jews arguing. You respond with a logical and thought out retort, and they simply repeat their original argument, as if they hadn’t heard it. And no, I’m not saying Ramz is a Jew, I’m simply saying this is the exact thing that Jews do and it’s disgusting.

    Oh look – I actually wrote the same article response to him twice:

    http://www.dailystormer.com/the-ramzpaul-attack-on-the-daily-stormer-is-pretty-disappointing/

    http://www.dailystormer.com/regarding-ramzpauls-anti-nazi-video/

    (Second one is better.)

    So. He hasn’t responded. He just keeps repeating that “it’s like Hal Turner.”

    Well, no it isn’t. Hal Turner was giving out the addresses of federal judges and other government officials and telling people to go assassinate them. Look it up. The articles are all archived. I’m not going to find it right now, but it’s there. I think part of it is in the Wikipedia page even. He started doing this in 2004-5, and in 2008 his email was hacked and communications with the feds were found, then in 2009 they arrested him for doing what they had been telling him to do – presumably because the hack had blown his cover. His lawyer presented a defense that he was only calling for assassinations because the feds told him to.

    Anyway, even if that wasn’t the situation with Hal Turner, it still wouldn’t be a valid argument, but Ramz simply lies when he brings this up – unless he doesn’t know what Hal Turner was actually doing, which I find very difficult to believe, because I know there are people explaining this to him.

    Honestly, Greg, it’s bizarre to me that you would even entertain someone like Ramz Paul. Go read those articles I wrote to him.

    And yes, if someone starts giving out addresses of federal judges to assassinate, then it is okay to compare them to Hal Turner and say they’re probably a fed.

    It is clearly the same thing with Watson and Cernovich making these claims against Spencer.

    Anyway, definitely retract the statement that I called Damigo a fed. That is just rumor-spreading on your part.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

      OK, consider it retracted.

      • Posted December 7, 2016 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

        Thanks, Greg.

      • RAMZPAUL
        Posted December 7, 2016 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

        Yes, it is my opinion that Anglin is either a Fed informer and/or funded by the ADL. Anglin acts as the front man for the Daily Stormer (DS), but most of the site is updated with anonymous writers. I had a female acquaintance who is friends with one such ghostwriter for DS.

        The quality of writing on DS is quite good and funny. This is in sharp contrast to Anglin’s public interviews. As an example, listen to his latest interview on the Alan Combs show. To paraphrase Anglin, he is not exactly the sharpest shill in the shed.

        https://youtu.be/8IUYJTZKZNQ

        The history of the ADL and the government funding false opposition is not limited to Hal Turner. Below is a site that lists some of the examples over the last 50 years:

        https://jewise.wordpress.com/jews-posing-as-neo-nazis/

        It is important to understand that FBI informers and ADL shills are two separate categories with different objectives.

        FBI informers are paid to provide tips of potential criminal behavior. A couple of recent examples of confirmed FBI agents (that was revealed in court) included Hal Turner and Brian Holland of the NSM. According to Mr. Holland, he was paid $80,000 a year to act as an FBI informant.

        ADL shills are used to perpetuate the Hollywood image of Nationalists. This includes the usual Nazi imagery as well as over the top anti-Semitism. The Jewish lobby has spent millions of dollars to keep the Nazi brand toxic and, as such, they find it effective to associate Nazism with any sort of White Identity or Nationalism. The goal is to discredit popular and grassroots movements by associating such movements with Nazism. And to give the Jews credit, they have been very effective with that strategy over the past 50 years.

        Common red flags of informants/Shills include:

        Coming out of nowhere with the most extreme positions imaginable
        Time in prison
        Seemingly well-funded without the need to have gainful employment
        Associations with sketchy people

        I believe that Anglin fits many of these categories.

        Just a few short years ago, Anglin was recorded saying that the “white race should be bred out.” Of course, people do change their views over time. But it is very strange for someone to go from anti-White to extreme 14/88 overnight. Such a rapid and radical change is a red flag.

        When Anglin suddenly appeared on the scene he started a web site called “Total Fascism.” Once that site failed he started Daily Stormer. Initially he had a bio on DS where he claimed to have become a “neo-nazi” from bonding with Aryan gangs in prison. That verbiage was later scrubbed from the site.

        If Anglin is an ex-con, that raises a huge flag. Many informers/shills are recruited from prison in return for a reduced sentence. Most serious political organizations would never trust a person once they did prison time. I had a friend that was in the IRA. He made it clear that the IRA considered all members who did time in a British prison to be potentially compromised.

        The rhetoric of the DS is also the cliché Hollywood Nazism that was formerly used by Frank “Collin” (real name Cohen) in the 1970s and Davis Wolfgang Hawke (real name Andrew Britt Greenbaum) in the 1990s. As an example, in a recent flier that DS sent to random printers they advertised their site complete with swastikas and the claim that they were fighting for “Global White Supremacy.” “Supremacy” is a well-known Jewish slur for any sort of White identity. Hardly anyone that is serious calls themselves a “White Supremacist.” Yet another Red Flag.

        If Anglin was released from prison (as he once claimed on DS) it is odd that instead of pursing a real job he would just go Hollywood Nazi. Unless you have some outside funding, it is quite difficult to make a living by calling everyone a “Kike”. Yet that seemed to be of no concern to Anglin.

        However, I must admit I was always suspicious of Anglin due to his prior association with a character named Mike Delaney. Delaney started the same time as Anglin with a very similar past. Delaney created a competitor to YouTube called TruTube. (Amazing that he got funding for that.) Anyway, Delaney stole one of my videos and put it on his Nazi video sharing site. I asked him nicely to remove it and he refused. So I filed a complaint against him to force him to remove the video. He got mad and drove to my home and threatened me (crossing state lines in such a manner is a Federal offense).

        http://www.ramzpaul.com/2013/02/video-theft.html

        This was raised to a Federal prosecutor and he informed me of Delaney’s compromised past including brokered deals. The fact that Anglin was pals with Delaney (they were grinning together in a YouTube video) raised a huge Red Flag.

        So can I PROVE that Anglin is a shill? No. But who could have PROVED that Hal Turner or Brian Holland were shills until it came out in court? You can only make an educated guess based on the evidence and patterns of behavior.

        People can believe me or not, I don’t really care. But I do find it disheartening that the Daily Stormer was able to successfully co-opt the Alt Right as nothing more than a new name for Neo-Nazism. I was worried that would happen. But I am just one guy. What could I do to stop it? Only thing I can do is to refuse to use the label.

        The Daily Stormer is funny and they have talented writers. However, they will always associate their Nazi/Anti-Semitic brand to try to discredit what is good for our people (Trump, the Alt Right, etc.).

        Unless we can eventually have a movement that has a firewall that prevents such Hollywood Nazi infiltration, we will never get anywhere. We will just be the stereotypical Nazi clowns that the media loves.

        • Greg Johnson
          Posted December 8, 2016 at 12:46 am | Permalink

          You do realize, though, that none of this constitutes proof. I don’t even think it constitutes reasonable grounds for suspicion.

        • Miha M
          Posted December 8, 2016 at 1:52 am | Permalink

          You raise a lot good questions about Mr Anglin. However everything in his past can also help him to know all the loopholes that our enemies use. So there remains this one thing of him being openly Nazi which supposedly hurts the brand and the movement. We are all well aware how much money and time they spend to keep Nazism/Hitler poisonous and how they try to link white nationalism to Nazism. It worked for long time. Anglin’s take on the issue is that when people are forced to decide between having their daughters and wifes raped or vote for Hitler, most of them will vote for Hitler. And this is whats coming down to. Its legitimate approach. DailyStomer’s record is spotless and huge net gain for movement.

          I think its great that we have all these factions of white nationalism to cater all these different personalities. Normies can hang out on Breitbart, Jew lovers can hang out with Taylor, intellectuals on counter-currents, neo-nazis on DailyStormer and there are many more outlets. All you guys are doing great job.

        • Michael Bell
          Posted December 8, 2016 at 5:00 am | Permalink

          “The quality of writing on DS is quite good and funny. This is in sharp contrast to Anglin’s public interviews. As an example, listen to his latest interview on the Alan Combs show. To paraphrase Anglin, he is not exactly the sharpest shill in the shed.”

          This is a problem that I think a lot of people have. I am not the greatest writer in the world, but I do a decent job. However, when I’m on the spot in a tense debate with people, I often slip up my words or get distracted by red herrings. Combs didn’t even give Anglin an opportunity to respond in many cases…he just kept shouting over him like a typical tight-laced establishment Boomer who doesnt like having to hear a younger person’s opinion.

          “Just a few short years ago, Anglin was recorded saying that the “white race should be bred out.” Of course, people do change their views over time. But it is very strange for someone to go from anti-White to extreme 14/88 overnight. Such a rapid and radical change is a red flag.”

          Can you cite any sources here?

          “The rhetoric of the DS is also the cliché Hollywood Nazism that was formerly used by Frank “Collin” (real name Cohen) in the 1970s and Davis Wolfgang Hawke (real name Andrew Britt Greenbaum)”

          Anglin doesn’t march around in a brownshirt, nor does he recommend that others do so. He doesnt encourage violence or any other illegal activity. Paid shills DO those things. Hal Turner told people to show up at his house with guns to protect him from antifas, for example. The worst I’ve ever seen Anglin do is tell people to tell hajis to go back where they came from.
          Plus the argument that any and all pro-Nazi types are automatically informants or Jews is getting very, very dull. It’s like when people say “He doesn’t like gays, he MUST BE GAY!”

          “As an example, in a recent flier that DS sent to random printers they advertised their site complete with swastikas and the claim that they were fighting for “Global White Supremacy.”

          RAMZ, I used to think you actually had a sense of humor. IT WAS DONE TO TRIGGER LEFTY COLLEGE KIDS, and to potentially spark interest among the more right-leaning ones! The term “White Supremacy” was used comically/sarcastically as well, and as a way of owning the Enemy’s insults and saying “Yea, call us that. We dont care.”

          “People can believe me or not, I don’t really care. But I do find it disheartening that the Daily Stormer was able to successfully co-opt the Alt Right as nothing more than a new name for Neo-Nazism.”

          What would you prefer? A rainbow coalition of civic nationalist nonwhites, queers, and Jews that you can take cute photos with at conferences? You guys can talk about the scientific basis of race and how much you care about Europe, then say “But totally, I’m not a White Nationalist! You can’t label me! I’m too unique for labels! Anyone who recognizes the Jewish role in the West’s decline is a Jew themselves!!”

          And what’s up with all your anecdotal mystery friends who have all these smoking gun pieces of evidence that substantiate your arguments? Someone who has such a sharp informant-radar like you might find that kinda thing suspicious, no?

          I know I’m sounding hostile up there, but I actually do enjoy your videos and think you are an otherwise great contributor to the Cause. I just think you need to cool it with the fed accusations. And I think that many of your misgivings about DS are a result of simply not understanding the humor involved, and possibly not understanding how younger people think these days.

        • Bantz Henriksen
          Posted December 8, 2016 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

          RamZ, your argument is sloppy and reeks of a prioristic bias. You offer different criteria for both categories of shills and fail to convincingly argue either.

        • Posted December 8, 2016 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

          “FBI informers are paid to provide tips of potential criminal behavior.”

          Well, then Anglin is a pretty shitty Fed/CI, because he constantly chastises anyone who calls for violence and tells people to stay away from anyone who is.

          “So can I PROVE that Anglin is a shill? No. But who could have PROVED that Hal Turner or Brian Holland were shills until it came out in court? You can only make an educated guess based on the evidence and patterns of behavior.”

          Fair enough, but this logic applies equally to people such as yourself. So, I can’t PROVE you’re a cuck ‘muh PR’ shill, but I can make educated guesses and come to the conclusion that you’re best avoided like the plague. Which, judging by your traffic stats, many others are coming to the same conclusion as well.

        • Leon
          Posted December 8, 2016 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

          Many of the points you make about Mr. Anglin are indeed intriguing, but as to the charge that he doesn’t present the same wit in interviews as found in writing on his website, it must be said that many people sound smarter and more clear-headed in writing than when speaking. Indeed, based the comments of yours I’ve read here Mr. Ramz, I’d say this applies to you as well. Not intending any offence, but I have noticed that you tend to slur, mispronounce or confuse words when speaking, whereas you obviously don’t to have that problem in writing.

          All that being said, and in the spirit of honest criticism, I must say that, like Ramzpaul and Liddell, I do not see, and never have seen the value of Anglin’s “Nazi-troll” approach. Maybe I just don’t get it, since as Anglin points out, his site has millions of viewers, but I hold to the idea, which Mr, Johnson is on record saying, that we shouldn’t be concerned with recruiting the most people possible, but the best people possible, and I just don’t see the 14/88ers, even the “ironic” ones, doing very well at that. I guess I’m just sick of bringing up questions of White survival with others, only to have defend myself from retarded comments (as in comments literally written by mentally challenged or stunted people) from sites like DS and Stormfront.

        • Posted December 8, 2016 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

          Hi Ramz,

          I see you are not addressing me directly here, instead referring to me in the third person. I will answer you in the second person, as I believe this is more socially appropriate.

          Firstly, everything you’ve said here is the same things you’ve said over and over and over again, which I have responded to, and which you have continued to pretend I didn’t respond to.

          You have also just outright made up two new things to add to your list of slanders. It’s very, very strange. If I am wrong and you are right, surely there is not a need for these sorts of underhanded, slimy tactics.

          Although I do suppose it is difficult to back-off from the position of calling someone a federal agent (or an ADL agent? not really clear on that point) without any evidence, so when confronted, you must simply continue to intensify the weird assault on my person.

          The two new bits you’ve added, which are outright lies, are that you know someone who knows someone who was a ghostwriter and that you saw on my site that I said I was in prison.

          But I will get to all of it. As you have never responded to me directly, ever, despite my having asked you to, this is a great opportunity for me. The famed Ramz Paul has come down from his mountain to engage the peasants.

          I will be able to refer people here in the future, so it’s clear to everyone that you are well aware of my responses to you.

          Yes, it is my opinion that Anglin is either a Fed informer and/or funded by the ADL. Anglin acts as the front man for the Daily Stormer (DS), but most of the site is updated with anonymous writers.

          This is not an opinion, it is a baseless accusation, which you admit in your post you have no proof of. As such, it is simply slander.

          By making such allegations, you disrespect not only me – not even primarily me – but the movement itself and everything we are trying to accomplish.

          This isn’t a game. Calling someone a federal agent is not some cute little thing you can do because you don’t like someone. We are dealing with people who actually want to exterminate us, and you make a mockery of the seriousness of this situation by engaging in a petty, pathetic attempt to slander someone who, for whatever reason (still not at all clear) you have an agenda against.

          The claim is obviously disingenuous, as demonstrated by your outright refusal to respond to anything I have said.

          I had a female acquaintance who is friends with one such ghostwriter for DS.

          This is a lie. I have never in my life put my own name on someone else’s work, and I never would.

          I have integrity.

          The quality of writing on DS is quite good and funny. This is in sharp contrast to Anglin’s public interviews. As an example, listen to his latest interview on the Alan Combs show. To paraphrase Anglin, he is not exactly the sharpest shill in the shed.

          https://youtu.be/8IUYJTZKZNQ

          Though I appreciate the compliment, what you are saying is just childish, idiot nonsense. Yes, I am a better writer than I am speaker. This is a quality of virtually all celebrated writers in history. In fact it is a meme in literature circles that great novelists are terrible orators.

          http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/books/review/Krystal-t.html

          Of course, that is a ridiculous example you post, and it shows how non-serious this whole charade you are putting on is. I was yelled at by a Jew for ten minutes. I didn’t do much speaking, I was repeatedly cut off and talked over.

          The question you should ask yourself here is: who do you think is going to buy this sort of drivel? Do you think so little of your own audience? Of Counter-Currents readers?

          The history of the ADL and the government funding false opposition is not limited to Hal Turner. Below is a site that lists some of the examples over the last 50 years:

          https://jewise.wordpress.com/jews-posing-as-neo-nazis/

          It is important to understand that FBI informers and ADL shills are two separate categories with different objectives.

          FBI informers are paid to provide tips of potential criminal behavior. A couple of recent examples of confirmed FBI agents (that was revealed in court) included Hal Turner and Brian Holland of the NSM. According to Mr. Holland, he was paid $80,000 a year to act as an FBI informant.

          ADL shills are used to perpetuate the Hollywood image of Nationalists. This includes the usual Nazi imagery as well as over the top anti-Semitism. The Jewish lobby has spent millions of dollars to keep the Nazi brand toxic and, as such, they find it effective to associate Nazism with any sort of White Identity or Nationalism. The goal is to discredit popular and grassroots movements by associating such movements with Nazism. And to give the Jews credit, they have been very effective with that strategy over the past 50 years.

          The ADL didn’t fund Hal Turner. Hal Turner was an FBI informant.

          As far as discrediting popular movements – the problem here is that I am the popular movement. Me, TRS and /pol/, all of which is Nazi. Everyone else – you, for instance – is simply along for the ride. We are the ones who made the Alt-Right a thing. We forced it into the media, by using shock methods, direct, concentrated troll attacks on individuals and various other Alinskyite techniques.

          Again – everyone with any intelligence who has been paying attention is aware of this. So you are again left asking yourself who exactly you are trying to appeal to with this bizarre slander campaign.

          Common red flags of informants/Shills include:

          Coming out of nowhere with the most extreme positions imaginable
          Time in prison
          Seemingly well-funded without the need to have gainful employment
          Associations with sketchy people

          I believe that Anglin fits many of these categories.

          Just a few short years ago, Anglin was recorded saying that the “white race should be bred out.” Of course, people do change their views over time. But it is very strange for someone to go from anti-White to extreme 14/88 overnight. Such a rapid and radical change is a red flag.

          As I’ve said – and as you are no doubt aware I’ve said, as you’ve clearly kept track of me – this recording was edited by someone on YouTube who was trying to attack me. Yes, sometime in the 00s I was recorded saying that – in a conversation trolling a black guy. It wasn’t a “few short years ago,” it was nearly a decade ago. I actually don’t even know when it was, as I hadn’t ever heard it before people brought it up 5 years ago. It’s clear on the recording I had been drinking. This is all obvious if the full recording is heard.

          It was recorded when I was running a forum where we were messing with various podcasters.

          There was no “overnight” anything.

          But talk about petty nonsense. Wow. Maybe next you can find some statements from my ex-girlfriend.

          When Anglin suddenly appeared on the scene he started a web site called “Total Fascism.” Once that site failed he started Daily Stormer.

          Even this, Ramz. Anyone who was there following the situation knows this is utterly false.

          The reason I started DS was because TF was so popular, and I wanted to create a platform with a format that would appeal to more people. TF was a personal blog. At the time, I didn’t understand how many people would be interested in the white racial agenda.

          Even if someone wasn’t there, surely the claim that I am not good at running websites is silly, isn’t it? I am now the 52nd most read news site in the United States, according to Alexa. I recently got attention for surpassing Bill Kristol’s Weekly Standard.

          This is their staff:

          http://www.weeklystandard.com/about

          My staff is: me.

          And now, finally, after three years, some guys I pay to write articles. Plus weev doing some tech stuff.

          I might not be good on Fox Radio, but I am very, very good at running websites.

          Initially he had a bio on DS where he claimed to have become a “neo-nazi” from bonding with Aryan gangs in prison. That verbiage was later scrubbed from the site.

          Ah-ha!

          This is where you really blow the whole jig, friend.

          This is an outright and open lie. With claiming you know someone who knows someone who was a ghostwriter, you have two people who could be the liars. But here, it can only be you.

          I have never written on my site that I was in prison, nor have I ever been in prison.

          You just made that up.

          If I had been in prison, it would be public record.

          And people know me. I’ve met many of my readers, and I was running conspiracy/troll forum since I was 19. That is 13 years of public internet life. A lot of these people from way back when are on my site now.

          If Anglin is an ex-con, that raises a huge flag. Many informers/shills are recruited from prison in return for a reduced sentence. Most serious political organizations would never trust a person once they did prison time. I had a friend that was in the IRA. He made it clear that the IRA considered all members who did time in a British prison to be potentially compromised.

          The rhetoric of the DS is also the cliché Hollywood Nazism that was formerly used by Frank “Collin” (real name Cohen) in the 1970s and Davis Wolfgang Hawke (real name Andrew Britt Greenbaum) in the 1990s. As an example, in a recent flier that DS sent to random printers they advertised their site complete with swastikas and the claim that they were fighting for “Global White Supremacy.” “Supremacy” is a well-known Jewish slur for any sort of White identity. Hardly anyone that is serious calls themselves a “White Supremacist.” Yet another Red Flag.

          Again, you have not acknowledged my two article responses to you explaining the concept of ironic Nazism. Instead, you repeat the same arguments, as if I have not responded to them.

          You claim that I am a “Hollywood Nazi” and compare me to dress-up Nazis, while I have explicitly said I don’t dress-up like a Nazi and do not encourage anyone to do so. You know I have explained this. And yet instead of taking that information and altering your little presentation, you simply repeat the baseless assertion.

          As far as “white supremacy” – as you are aware, I have argued that owning insults is the only effective way to overcome them. You can disagree with that method, and we could talk about it. But you aren’t disagreeing with it. You are just repeating your claim that something other than that is happening.

          Do you not understand that people see you doing this? That we are having a public discussion with people who are not stupid reading what you are writing?

          Maybe check this out.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

          Assuming that everyone around you is stupid is not ever a smart move, Ramz.

          Also, with regards to the weev flyer – why did you make a video praising it as funny? You said you understood the concept, that we were making it fun.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxsY3Mbd9ic

          Then you went back to your previous position of “they’re secret agents somehow.” With your very next video, you went back to that position.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnbREcG30Dg

          There was literally three days between those two videos, Ramz.

          Opposite positions.

          Do this not seem completely hysterical?

          I mean, just take a step back and try to imagine how this looks to people observing it.

          If Anglin was released from prison (as he once claimed on DS) it is odd that instead of pursing a real job he would just go Hollywood Nazi. Unless you have some outside funding, it is quite difficult to make a living by calling everyone a “Kike”. Yet that seemed to be of no concern to Anglin.

          Yet more totally absurd and malicious slander.

          lol @ repeating that I claimed I’d been in prison. Do you think you’re working some kind of psychic-driving here, Ramz?

          I solicit donations. Most of my avenues have been cut off. The ADL/SPLC has harassed companies to have all of my avenues of income shut down – but I guess you would say they do that to make it look like I’m not working for them, right? Like a fake-out? Is that why they shut down my disqus comments as well? And you know I’m the only political site that was ever done to? Is that why they blocked my upstream servers – something which had previously only been done to child pornographers and terrorists? As a complex fake-out maneuver?

          This gets to crisis actor-tier tinfoil at some point, does it not?

          Anyway. I have a lot of people who support my work, and are willing to use bitcoin.

          Do you know anything about bitcoin, ramz?

          Well, it’s possible to track transactions of an address.

          Here’s mine:

          https://blockchain.info/address/1A1ryxZtz4LX7o1GEne9Qz49w3DFgfJaB

          In the last two and a half years, I’ve received 98.8425027 btc, which is currently about $75,000.

          Granted, at the time I received most of it, it was less than half of it’s current value, and I didn’t hold onto it long. But say it’s $40,000 in two and half years. Combine that with mail-in donations, and I’ve got more than enough to pay for my hosting, IT work, and a meager living.

          Of course, it could be that the ADL/feds/Reptilians are sending me money through bitcoin so that I could use it as an explanation when some clever YouTuber said that I must be funded by the Jews because otherwise I would starve to death.

          How deep does this rabbit hole go?

          But you never thought this was a real line of reasoning, anymore than you thought just making up the idea that I said on my site that I’d been in prison was a good line of reasoning. You just assume everyone is stupid, because you yourself apparently aren’t intelligent enough to gauge the intelligence of others.

          But the Alt-Right is a sharp group of people, Ramz. No one is buying what you are selling.

          However, I must admit I was always suspicious of Anglin due to his prior association with a character named Mike Delaney. Delaney started the same time as Anglin with a very similar past. Delaney created a competitor to YouTube called TruTube. (Amazing that he got funding for that.) Anyway, Delaney stole one of my videos and put it on his Nazi video sharing site. I asked him nicely to remove it and he refused. So I filed a complaint against him to force him to remove the video. He got mad and drove to my home and threatened me (crossing state lines in such a manner is a Federal offense).

          http://www.ramzpaul.com/2013/02/video-theft.html

          This was raised to a Federal prosecutor and he informed me of Delaney’s compromised past including brokered deals. The fact that Anglin was pals with Delaney (they were grinning together in a YouTube video) raised a huge Red Flag.

          Delaney’s okay. Good people. Didn’t do nothing.

          Why were you talking to a federal prosecutor? And in such a capacity that he was giving you information on the markdown sentencing of convicts?

          Do you have evidence of the brokered deal?

          So can I PROVE that Anglin is a shill? No. But who could have PROVED that Hal Turner or Brian Holland were shills until it came out in court? You can only make an educated guess based on the evidence and patterns of behavior.

          Yes, yes, yes. Hal Turner again.

          As I wrote above – maybe you missed that comment, so I’ll explain it again here – Hal Turner was literally giving out the addresses of federal judges and other government officials and telling people to go assassinate them. So, yes, you could have had reasonable suspicions about Hal Turner. A lot of people at the time did.

          But the case relates in no way whatsoever. And you know that. Or at least I hope you have Googled Hal Turners case, with as much as you talk about him. He was encouraging acts of violence and then giving over information on people who wrote him saying they were going to do it.

          I have in fact worked harder than anyone else to discourage acts of violence. I also have a policy of never, under any circumstances, talking to the police – and tell everyone that. Whereas you, as per your above statement, are communicating with federal prosecutors for some reason, which I assume you will explain in your response to this post.

          And it wasn’t court that revealed it (maybe you haven’t ever Googled him?), it was a hacking of his email, which was posted online by guys from /b/. It was later confirmed in court, when his lawyer used the defense that the FBI was telling him to commit these crimes. The reason he was charged, I believe, was that he had been outed by the hack.

          Anyway, there is absolutely zero analog to me and my situation, beyond the fact that we both “use hateful language.”

          As far as Holland – that is even less relevant. He wasn’t running a media platform, he was working intelligence, infiltrating organizations. Totally unrelated.

          But the fact that you admit you can’t prove it is the real clincher here. Because it demonstrates, without any room for doubt, that you are not a serious person. You are a joke. You don’t care about any of the goals of this movement. I have no idea why you’ve launched this war against me, and I won’t speculate, but you do not care about the white movement, or you wouldn’t turn it into a circus with these deadly serious allegations, which you believe can just be tossed around, like it’s all a game.

          This is not a game.

          I repeat: this is not a game.

          There are people who are trying to exterminate us. This is a matter of survival. There has never been a more serious point in the history of the white race than right now. And you think the most important thing is to play this little game.

          It is utterly sickening, and I believe entirely disqualifying.

          And most everyone else appears to agree with me. You weren’t important to begin with – you made 5 minute comedy videos on YouTube that got 10,000 views. But you are now less than unimportant. You are looked at with disdain by absolutely anyone who has a real devotion to this cause, due to your willingness to try turn the whole thing into a joke.

          People can believe me or not, I don’t really care.

          Come on now. This is absurd.

          You obviously do care, or you wouldn’t have devoted your life to repeating it over and over and over again. I just skimmed your twitter account. Along with the retweeting of Jews and a few news stories, the whole thing is about me.

          Surely, you wouldn’t have blown what little credibility you had and any you could ever hope to gain in the future on this little crusade if you didn’t care if people believed this little story you’re telling.

          But I do find it disheartening that the Daily Stormer was able to successfully co-opt the Alt Right as nothing more than a new name for Neo-Nazism. I was worried that would happen. But I am just one guy. What could I do to stop it? Only thing I can do is to refuse to use the label.

          But you said Richard Spencer killed the Alt-Right by refusing to cuck on #Heilgate? I watched your video. Now it’s my fault? Did I somehow corrupt the mind of innocent little Richie with hardcore 1488 Neo-Nazism? Is that actually what you are claiming?

          And why is it that you aren’t calling Richard Spencer a fed for invoking Nazi imagery?

          Come to think of it, why am I the only one you call a fed, when basically everyone is doing this?

          TRS certainly does it. Their show is called “The Daily Shoah,” and their logo is an oven. They say “nigger” a lot more than I do. In fact, it was Enoch who encouraged the salutes at NPI. But never have I seen you launch vile, histrionic slander-attacks on them.

          You could use all the same arguments you’ve used here. Just say “oh Hal Turner also called minorities mean names” and “Mike Enoch wrote on his site that he was in prison then he deleted it. There is no archive of it, and I am the only person who ever saw it, but it’s my opinion that it’s all real.”

          But nope. Just DS.

          Why is this, Ramz? Surely, if anyone who invokes Nazi imagery is a fed, then everyone who invokes Nazi imagery is a fed. That is just simple mathematics.

          One would also have to wonder about my hundreds of thousands of readers – if anyone who believes Nazi imagery is fun and inspiring is a fed, than surely, all of these readers have to be feds also, right?

          How deep does this rabbit hole go?

          Also, to the issue that I have hundreds of thousands of followers – not bragging here, it is just relevant to the point – how is it possible that I am so much more popular than you or any of the others in the alt-cuck, but yet you claim your method is the only one that can ever have popular appeal?

          Is this not the exact situation we saw with Ted Cruz claiming that he is the only one who can beat Hillary, when he can’t beat Trump?

          The Daily Stormer is funny and they have talented writers. However, they will always associate their Nazi/Anti-Semitic brand to try to discredit what is good for our people (Trump, the Alt Right, etc.).

          Unless we can eventually have a movement that has a firewall that prevents such Hollywood Nazi infiltration, we will never get anywhere. We will just be the stereotypical Nazi clowns that the media loves.

          Just for the record here, the other successful people who used Nazi imagery who you actually could compare me to realistically (even though I’m against dress-up, they used the imagery for the same agitation purposes) were killed or thrown in prison.

          George Lincoln Rockwell was assassinated. Bill White is in prison for allegedly sending threatening emails. For 30 years. For emails. So, if everyone who uses Nazi imagery is a fed agent, why did this happen? Surely, they would both be top feds, based on your arguments here.

          Ah well.

          Whatever.

          I’ve said my peace. If you want to respond and ask me any questions, I’d be happy to answer them. And maybe it isn’t too late to just back off.

          Or you could maybe try to formulate a new argument based on these responses I’ve given you, I guess. Maybe that could work.

          But I’m going to link this page in the future whenever you are your weird drama-mongering are brought up. So you’re going to have to do something different.

    • Reinhard Wolff
      Posted December 9, 2016 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      For the record, Identity Evropa has never asked for pictures of anyone’s tattoos.

      The question on our application asks if the applicant has tattoos (the overwhelming majority do not) and if so, what/were. We never demand proof, so theoretically someone could lie about his tattoos and we wouldn’t know unless one of us were to physically inspect him in person.

      The reason why we ask this is because we simply are not interested in anyone with any visible NS tattoos, or any tattoos on the face, neck, or hands. It’s nothing personal, but that isn’t the image we’re looking to project.

      Regarding the group question, we definitely aren’t interested in gang members (the question says nothing about gangs) and we believe that an individual’s efforts are best dedicated to one organization. Moreover, we don’t want the actions of other pro-White organizations reflecting on us.

      Besides, people are allowed to apply under aliases, which renders the honeypot accusation further absurd.

  21. Triptolemus
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for posting this thoughtful response, Greg. One seeming contradiction that demands clarity: Should we “adopt a civil and charitable tone” or be “ruthless with failure”? To be charitable means to give the benefit of the doubt, and to allow for mistakes if they are not outright betrayals, so long as mistakes can be corrected or differences in tactics can be given a proper hearing or seen in proper perspective. Since our people *are* being “assaulted, doxed, or persecuted by the state,” we *should* “always rally to their aid, regardless of differences of personality or principle.” Concerning your caveats, isn’t one man’s “recklessness” another man’s courage? And shouldn’t we be careful to not assign motives, like “selfishness,” without providing specific examples? I realize there must be limits, but since there is little to no unity in leadership, there is no standard, and no arbiter. I am impressed by your ability to say something without saying it, but there will come a time when our common enemies have us surrounded and differences among our leaders must be aired and worked out civilly. I appreciate your point about different tactics and positions playing to different crowds, and as long as we can agree to disagree on minute details but stay committed to white nationalism writ large (however loosely defined), I think that is a good strategy. Still, I maintain that bickering among ourselves publicly signals weakness to our enemies. We should maintain a high tone and keep our chastisements private. Arguing in public leads to grandstanding, unless it is a formal, structured debate. (Perhaps that could be a format for a future Forum.) It is worth bearing in mind that for all the differences between our Lidells and Anglins, we still have more in common with each other than our enemies–unlike our enemies, whose main commonality is their enmity to us. Also, the Archimedes reference is noted and appreciated.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

      We should adopt a civil and charitable tone to get to the bottom of things, and be ruthless when failure, treason, etc. are unmasked.

      People’s opinions differ all the time, but that does not mean that there is no difference between courage and recklessness. Recklessness is a vice, whereas courage is a virtue.

      I think fearing to disagree with one another signals weakness and brittleness.

      Thanks for a thoughtful comment.

  22. Dashui
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Hey we need to keep that crazy Archimedes due from getting his hands on any levers. I like the earth just where it is, thank you.

  23. Right_On
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Off topic, but today I was in a west London public library so decided to check out Counter-Currents’ latest posts.
    You’re ahead of me, aren’t you?
    The computer showed “Access Denied” with an “explanation” that the site had been flagged up as having material that could offend minority citizens. However, I was able to access Occidental Observer so our self-appointed guardians still have work to do.

  24. Lew
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    The claim that Andrew Anglin is “controlled opposition” has always struck me and still does as a manufactured controversy ginned up by people who, let’s face it, want to make this movement or whatever it is friendly to the Jews and Peoria whites.The people who don’t like AA and the people who want to import the Jews more often than not draw from the same pool.

    • Nestor
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

      Lew
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

      The claim that Andrew Anglin is “controlled opposition” has always struck me and still does as a manufactured controversy ginned up by people who, let’s face it, want to make this movement or whatever it is friendly to the Jews and Peoria whites.The people who don’t like AA and the people who want to import the Jews more often than not draw from the same pool.

      Yes. This is exactly my belief as well.

    • Oil Can Harry
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

      Liddell, Ramzpaul and Gavin McInnes are free to dislike Anglin but are totally out of line in accusing him of being a Fed, as Greg notes.

      When federal agents join a militia or Klan group they often try to trick the members into breaking the law. OTOH Anglin has repeatedly denounced violence and ordered his Stormer Troll Army to refrain from threatening their SJW targets with physical harm.

  25. Joseph Klaus
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    As a general rule I agree with the idea that you shouldn’t punch right. I am however sick of people using the excuse to avoid legitimate and at times necessary criticism. The movement shouldn’t pull punches when dealing with people who are venomously divisive and use their position “on the right” to harass and destabilize the White Nationalist movement from within.

    I think the experience of Jared Taylor shows the flaws in the “no punching right” meme. Jared Taylor sincerely believes that Jews will one day come around. He also has throughout his career made space for those who vehemently disagree with him. Speakers at American Renaissance conferences have included many “anti-Semites” maybe even some who in private company would call themselves National Socialists. He has published articles about National Socialist Black Metal, and a review of Kevin MacDonald Culture of Critique. He has done radio interviews for Red Ice, Stormfront radio and the White voice podcast. He has spoken at international events like the London Forum where the JQ isn’t taboo. All in all no one has done more to avoid punching right than Jared Taylor. However, if Jared Taylor’s name is brought up in a forum or comment section people call him a cuck, controlled opposition, and allege that his wife is Jewish. If attacked these trolls will accuse you of punching right.

  26. Peter Quint
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 6:39 am | Permalink

    “Perhaps worst vice in our circles is accusing one’s opponents of being “controlled opposition” or enemy agents without adequate evidence.”

    Christian organizations are always “controlled opposition,” history bears that out.

  27. Practicallyperfect
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 3:43 am | Permalink

    As always Mr. Johnson, well said.

  28. Will Windsor
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 2:21 am | Permalink

    The “No Punching Right” doctrine has come under confusion lately. I always conceived of it as comprising 2 main principles (1) Don’t cuck for the Left when one of our own is under attack, and (2) more energy should be spent outwards attacking the Left/Conservatives, rather than infighting.

    I agree that criticizing others in the movement is healthy and natural. There’s nothing wrong with that and is bound to happen because we’re taking different approaches to reach the most people. This should be within reason and proportional to the issue at hand. We should always be mindful, however, of focusing our aim against the enemy rather than tearing each other down through infighting.

    But most importantly, NEVER kowtow to the Left/Media when a fellow soldier is in the crossshairs. We do not disavow, or grovel, or shame, or admonish, instead we hit back against the Left even harder. You evade, you ignore, you find nuance or establish perspective on the “controversy,” and then immediately turn back on the offensive against the Left. If you can’t do that, then just keep your goddamn mouth shut. After the initial media shitstorm has subsided, then we can air our differences and criticism.

    I believe this is what most people mean when they say “don’t punch right,” granted it has increasingly been used to shield people from valid criticism.

    • Rona
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 6:15 am | Permalink

      “We do not disavow, or grovel, or shame, or admonish, instead we hit back against the Left even harder. You evade, you ignore, you find nuance or establish perspective on the “controversy,” and then immediately turn back on the offensive against the Left. ”

      Exactly this. No enemies to the right means never disavowing or admonishing your own side, not that there cannot be exchange of ideas, or that you can’t find many individuals on our side reprehensible. You can simply stay silent.

      To me it is an attitude of zero fucks given, with regards to virtue signaling with normies/left.

      If, for example, one is asked to comment on Anders Breivik, spend 0 seconds talking how horrible what he did is or discuss why the right is really not like that, but rather use the opportunity to attack the left for creating situations that have lead to mass killing and conclude the exchange with desire to see nationalists restored to power and Muslims repatriated before more killings inevitably occur.

      Vox Day does this beautifully, no denunciations, no muh morality, only dispassionate noting of ‘inevitable historical trends’, ‘predictable outcomes’ of leftist policies.

      I loved his argument about necessity of bringing nationalists to power and expelling non-whites if states want to avoid another Hitler, because if people are made to chose between migrants raping their children on the way to school and bringing Nazis to power, who can blame them for choosing Nazis?

      Rona

      • Greg Johnson
        Posted December 7, 2016 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

        Sorry, no serious movement can have a blanket policy of not disavowing or admonishing people “on our side.” That makes us hostage to the most reckless and selfish people among us. And it victimizes people for their virtues, like trust and solidarity. Which decreases the overall fitness of the movement.

        I suppose if you were a selfish, reckless, and corrupt individual you would definitely like an ethos of no criticism, or keep criticism to back channel whispers, because that will allow you to keep the rubes in the dark longer, which will prolong your scam. But it is no way to build a movement with healthy long-term prospects.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      I disagree. It depends on why a “fellow soldier” is in the crosshairs. If he is there because he is stupid, reckless, and selfish, exactly how does it make us a stronger movement to close ranks? Such an attitude rewards vice and it penalizes virtue, because it exploits and depletes trust and solidarity, which are the foundation of a functional movement. Which means that closing ranks around bad people decreases the long term fitness of the cause.

      • Will Windsor
        Posted December 7, 2016 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

        Agreed, it does depend on the situation and why someone is in the crosshairs. But it seems we always take the position of distancing and disavowing when under Media attack, rather than pushing back against the Left. I believe our first instinct should be to defend and attack, not disavow.

  29. Dash Boulevard
    Posted December 7, 2016 at 2:18 am | Permalink

    By this logic, one ends up allied with Hitler. People like Anglin should not be viewed merely as means to an end. That is an acceptance of their moral stance, which is a lowering of yours. This is the attitude of someone playing at revolution, rather than someone who is serious about both identity and morality.

    • Michael Bell
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 6:14 am | Permalink

      This website has made it clear that one of its tactics is influencing mainstream culture to ultimately make it hospitable for pro-White values. Anglin is doing exactly that in his own way, particularly a way that influences younger people. I mean no disrespect here, but many of you Boomers and Gen-Xers don’t understand the type of humor that Millenials cultivate. We like sarcasm, we like irony, we like mocking the hell out of false sacred cows. We like people like Trump because he straight up calls it like he sees it and doesn’t play the game of politeness, proper presidential speech, etc. We watch him shut down a shill like Jeb Bush, who plays by the rules of politeness, and it gets us amped. We enjoy the antics of someone like Rody Duterte because he straight up called Obama’s mother a whore and called a Jew diplomat a faggot, all while working to make his own country better.

      Anglin knows that there is not going to be some Beer Hall Putsch that catapults a hard core Nazi to power over the U.S. He fully embraces National Socialist ideology, to be sure, but he uses the imagery and talks about gassing kikes in order to appear edgy, and in order to show young folks that WN have a sense of humor and can be ironic. It’s fun to trigger pearl-clutching Leftists. It’s fun to openly call out the Jews. It’s fun to mock the sacred cows. People like Anglin as well as the Red Ice crowd, weev, and the guys at TRS are working to ensure that WN has a new generation to pick up the torch. I don’t think they should adjust their methods WHATSOEVER, especially given the series of incidents at college campuses over the last year involving some kind of pro-White controversy. I do feel, however, that it would be good if people stopped accusing others of being plants simply because they espouse pro-Hitler sentiments.

      Let Anglin do his thing. When you hear your son and his friends talking about how Hitler really didn’t do anything wrong while playing video games in the family room one day, you’ll be thankful that the Daily Stormer existed. Then when they get a little older and are ready for the deeper aspects of racialist thinking, they will end up here at Counter Currents or at Radix. We’re all in this together.

      • Anonymous
        Posted December 20, 2016 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

        We like people like Trump because he straight up calls it like he sees it…

        Here’s Donald Trump “straight up calling it like he sees it”:

        “I love Israel and honor and respect the Jewish faith and tradition, and it’s important that we have a president who feels the same way. For me, respect and reverence for Judaism is personal: My daughter Ivanka and my son-in-law Jared are raising their children in the Jewish faith, always reminding me the important values and lessons we learn about leadership, resolve, and family Jewish traditions. My administration will stand side by side with the Jewish people and Israel’s leaders to continue strengthening the bridges that connect not only Jewish Americans and Israelis, but also all Americans and Israelis. Together we will stand up to the enemies like Iran, bent on destroying Israel and her people. Together we will make America and Israel safe again.”
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RMWGTStWvc

    • Rona
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 6:29 am | Permalink

      Moral stance has a strong smell of cuckservative.

      Someone who is serious about identity understands that ‘Hitler’ and he share the exact same goal, preserving the race, regardless of what you think about his methods. Also, seeing the magnitude of destruction of both Europe and America, do you actually believe things would be worse if you had actually allied with Hitler?

    • Tim
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 7:34 am | Permalink

      Identity is revolution. As Hitler was with physical weapons, so must we have intellectual weapons. We’re serious. You’re not.

    • FB
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 11:03 am | Permalink

      A better term is co-belligerence. There’s no endorsement of one another’s moral outlook, they’re simply fighting for many of the same goals against a common enemy.

    • Captainchaos
      Posted December 7, 2016 at 11:26 am | Permalink

      If Hitler is such a giant turnoff then how do you account for the massive popularity of the Daily Stormer?

      Btw, I know for a fact that Greg Johnson is a closet fan of NS.

      • Greg Johnson
        Posted December 7, 2016 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

        The Stormer might have exponential growth until it reaches the limits of its potential audience, which is probably less than .01% of the overall white population.

        “Closet”? My views of NS are pretty much an open book. Begin here:

        http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/11/the-relevance-of-the-old-right-2/

        http://www.counter-currents.com/2014/04/the-burden-of-hitler-2014/

        • Miha M
          Posted December 7, 2016 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

          This is very naive statement. CC attracts readers with rational argumentation and clever persuasion, DS on other hand attract his readers by tapping into emotions and primal instincts. If you think Anglin’s approach has less potential than yours, than you are seriously misjudging human character. Even in normal circumstances Anglin would have much bigger crowd. And hard times further lowers peoples ability to think rationally.

          • Othmar Regin
            Posted December 8, 2016 at 2:48 am | Permalink

            This is a very correct observation, when the chips are down people tend to fallback to the “lowest common denominator” this is how Hitler rose to power and this is how it’s likely going to end up when we finally hit our pain threshold. People again will follow a “strong man” not a “philosopher”. And again this man(not likely a woman) will most likely lead us to our doom like Hitler(his virtues notwithstanding) did.

            I don’t think we can truly win this fight simply because there are only maybe 500-700 million of “us” Whites against 7billion non-whites and at least half of us are too cucked to be saved so we are talking about 200-300 million against the world.. and by “win” I mean to take back full control of media, politics, culture and economy.

            I think when the final conflagration comes will will need to pursue a scorched-earth policy and bring back the laws of Nature like “survival of the fittest”, what I am saying is we can’t win this fight alone but Nature can do the heavy lifting for us. We created this civilization then it was taken from us we sure can destroy it and rebuild anew.

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