1,700 words
On Monday, August 28, Tara McCarthy invited me to have a conversation with Andrew Anglin of The Daily Stormer on her Reality Calls Show. I enjoyed the debate between me and Vox Day she hosted on August 17th, so I accepted. Tara made it clear that we were to be having a conversation, not a debate, and the topic would be the current attacks on white advocates and the way forward from here. I need to make this clear, because Andrew is now billing our conversation as a debate.
The conversation was held as a live Google hangout on YouTube, but when it was over, Tara uploaded it to BitChute, a new censorship-free video platform. I thought this was a good idea, not just to prevent YouTube from censoring it, but also as a way to lead my followers and Andrew’s to discover BitChute, which is a platform worth promoting. You can listen and comment at BitChute here.
Some of my friends expressed surprise that the conversation was so friendly. It was my first public conversation with Andrew, but we have spoken before on Skype. We disagree on a lot of matters, but our interactions have always been collegial. I think The Daily Stormer is tasteless and probably a net negative for white advocacy, but I have defended Andrew from baseless charges by Colin Liddell and others that he is an enemy agent.
Andrew and I agreed on many, perhaps most, of the points we discussed. In particular, we agreed that Nazi flags are bad for optics at public rallies like Unite the Right in Charlottesville. Andrew went so far as to recommend that at future rallies, there should only be American flags. If this had been the case at Charlottesville, the normies of the world would have been treated to the spectacle of a rabble of grungy freaks carrying Communist flags assaulting clean-cut white men carrying American flags, which would have made it very difficult for the establishment to sell its now collapsing narrative that Unite the Right was responsible for the violence.
I was somewhat surprised that Andrew and I share the same basic view of the harm caused by Nazi aesthetics at protests, and I gently challenged him to apply the same thinking to The Daily Stormer.
Andrew claimed that I misrepresented his views on this matter in my discussion with Vox Day. I don’t recall saying that. (Listen and let me know.) I do recall criticizing Andrew for insisting on claiming the Alt Right “brand” for white nationalism alone, and applauding hailgate for polarizing between the Alt Right and the Alt Lite. The Alt Right worked best by being a big tent. Now the Alt Right is increasingly marginal, and the Alt Lite is dedicated to combating ethnic nationalism.
Our main disagreement was about the Third Reich and the Holocaust. Andrew insists that since our enemies stigmatize all racial nationalists as Nazis, we must combat this by rehabilitating the Third Reich, including denying the Holocaust. My response is that we should simply focus on the injustice, absurdity, and neuroticism of the charge that all forms of racial nationalism, and nationalism in general — and, really, everything that the Left hates — is “Nazi.”
Andrew’s position on the Holocaust boils down to: It never happened, but it should have. This is completely indefensible.
First, it is factually indefensible. No honest revisionist claims that the Holocaust never happened. (Robert Faurisson does claim this, but only by insisting on a particular definition. His argument is too clever by half and cannot be taken seriously.) Even if one grants every serious revisionist argument, what remains is Holocaust enough for most people. Andrew claimed that his approach to the Holocaust was to offer mockery, not arguments. When I countered that revisionism is a rather intellectually demanding body of literature, he made it clear that he simply does not care if his positions are intellectually defensible. Unfortunately, intelligent and thoughtful people do care about things like that, and we want to attract them to our movement, not repulse them.
Second, I would love to see Andrew venture a moral defense of his position. Given the Jewish establishment’s enormous investment in stigmatizing National Socialism and the Holocaust as the ultimate evil, it strikes me as a blunder for white advocates to take such positions. That’s what the Jews want us to do. The Jews have cast racially-conscious whites into a pit of moral obloquy, which Andrew is simply deepening. But when you are in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. White Nationalists actually occupy the moral high ground, and we need to act like it.
My position on the Holocaust is explained in two articles:
- “Dealing with the Holocaust” (first published at The Occidental Observer. The OO comment thread can be accessed here.)
- “Why the Holocaust Happened, and Why It Won’t Happen Again” (which I mistakenly referred to as “The Lesson of the Holocaust”)
Basically, I argue that trotting out the Holocaust — and sometimes the specter of “another Holocaust” — to stigmatize every expression of white racial consciousness and self-assertion is a moral fraud.
First, the lesson of the Holocaust is not that the planet must submit to Jewish emotional blackmail until the sun burns out, lest we sin again. The lesson is that stateless peoples living in multicultural societies are vulnerable to genocide when the tensions caused by diversity explode into violence.
Second, Jews are no longer in danger of “another Holocaust” because they have their own ethnostate with a huge arsenal of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons.
Third, while Jews are in no danger of “another Holocaust,” white genocide — by means of low fertility, miscegenation, and race-replacement immigration — is real, and it will lead to white extinction unless we turn these trends around by embracing White Nationalism and creating homogeneous homelands for all white peoples.
It is a moral absurdity for Jews, who are in no danger of another genocide, to morally blackmail a people that is facing genocide into doing nothing to resist it. In effect, they claim that because the Holocaust happened, the white race must die, which is a transparently bad argument that springs from an ugly spirit of vengefulness. It is, moreover, a moral obscenity when one comes to realize the role that Jewish influence played in setting white nations on the path to extinction in the first place.
Jews are manipulating our sympathy for a select set of innocent victims as a weapon of political and demographic warfare against whites. We have to make our people immune to this manipulation. Why the selective focus on Jewish suffering? Why do most Americans have a ready answer to the question “How many Jews died in the Holocaust?” but have no idea how many Americans died in World War II? Why are we bombarded with the fake moral imperative that whites must never unite to protect our ethnic interests again because of the Holocaust? Why are all whites now stigmatized as perpetrators — or enablers, or potential perpetrators — of the Holocaust, even the nations that fought against the Third Reich? The way to stop the weaponization of the Holocaust against whites is to expose this sinister moral swindle, not to fiddle with the numbers — which at their largest have never approached the crimes of Communism, and which at their smallest will never reach zero anyway.
At one point, Andrew claims that the Holocaust is the foundation of the whole white-guilt complex, although he immediately backs away from that claim by mentioning that slavery and colonialism are put to the same use. In truth, the Holocaust is not the foundation of Jewish power, as Mark Weber has pointed out. Jews were powerful long before the Holocaust. Powerful enough, for instance, to deliver the United States into two World Wars. The Holocaust has been weaponized against whites because of pre-existing Jewish power in the media, academia, business, and politics. And if the revisionists really had a magic bullet that would destroy the Holocaust as a historical event, the Jewish establishment would smoothly and shamelessly pivot to accusing the Allied governments of perpetrating a huge crime against the Jewish people, for if the Holocaust really is a big lie, then countless families were never reunited because they simply assumed all their relatives were dead. And slavery and colonialism would be promoted to the chief tools of raising white guilt and lowering white resistance to genocide. The holocaust is just one tool of Jewish power, not the cornerstone. It is not the matador, just one of his capes that revisionists foolishly keep charging, thinking it is the man himself.
One final point: I agree with Andrew that it is important to use mockery to counter the weaponization of the Holocaust. But we have to be very careful in choosing our targets. We need to mock the lies, the sanctimony, the selective moral outrage, the implicit Jewish supremacism (only Jewish victims matter), and the cynical political opportunism connected with the Holocaust. But we have to remember that the lies were told by the survivors and Allies, not the dead, most of whom died simply because they were Jews. If our goal is to immunize our people from being emotionally exploited by Holocaust propaganda, we need to raise their moral indignation against the enemy, not against ourselves. So it is self-defeating to mock the victims.
I want to thank Tara and Andrew for an enjoyable and stimulating conversation. I want to encourage her do to more such discussions. I am certainly happy to take part in them. I also think it is important to promote new platforms like BitChute by giving them exclusive content.
In that spirit, I want to end by repeating a friendly challenge to my listeners and Andrew’s. We both have Hatreon accounts. Right now, Andrew is the #1 Hatreon creator with 65 patrons and $1176.93/month. I currently have 27 patrons and $449/month. Naturally, I want to be #1. So if you are my supporter, please click HERE, use the invite code BNIHVDDYXEHW, and make a monthly pledge. Naturally, Andrew’s supporters will try to keep him #1 by also pledging. Thus this is a friendly sort of rivalry that will help all parties, including Hatreon.
So what are you waiting for?
Thank you for your loyal readership and support.
Greg Johnson
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14 Comments
Greg is a brilliant writer and thinker, and is an excellent networker of people. My writings are on here (different pseudonym) because I was fortunate enough to meet him at an event many years ago. Andrew Anglin is also a great writer and I would also say comedian, as well as a skilled propagandist and meme-creator. His website helped bring me out of a black-pilled state a few years back, and made me realize that there is a massive body of young people becoming receptive to White Nati0nalism.
Both Counter-Currents and the Daily Stormer offer something important to the Alt Right. CC offers the intellectual and philosophical material that appeals to the more cerebral elements of our people. Meanwhile, the Stormer is like the Salon and Buzzfeed of the Alt Right in that it appeals to large numbers of impressionable young people. And for the record, the Stormer IS funny. It is bloody hilarious, and I find it outrageous to see people on here deriding it as somehow “bad” for White advocacy. If raking in huge numbers of high school and college age boys and getting them interested in our message is bad for White advocacy, then yea I guess Anglin is enemy #1. If trolling our enemies publicly and making people realize that it’s okay for them to mock the Leftist narrative is somehow detrimental to the Cause, then yea, I guess DS is awful. I think the real issue here is a generational thing: Boomers and Xers simply don’t understand sarcastic Millenial humor. These same Boomers will then scratch their heads at why The Daily Show and Colbert Report was so successful at making millions of Millenials into liberal Obama-voters.
Counter Currents and Daily Stormer are both crucial components to our movement. We need both, as each appeals to a different section of our numbers and helps to foster diversity of thought and personality among them.
Your essay is cogent, but it still baffles me that there is a masochistic inclination to dredge up WW2 yet again and, to paraphrase you, “to fight the enemy at its strongest point”
The biggest problem with AA & DS is that they dabble in cartoonish, ill conceived ideology which looks asinine to normies (though perhaps thrillingly provocative to young guns). Did any of the following, extremely hard fought Nationalist Wins come because WW2 Axis symbolism was used for their promotion?
-Props187 & 227 (Cal) & Prop200(AZ)
-Pat Buchanan’s 1996 NH Primary win & 2nd overall nationwide in GOP primaries
-Citizens Defeat of Measure 88 (Oregon)
-Trump’s 2016 win & wins by patriots like Gov LePage (Maine), Gov Brewer (AZ), Abbott (TX)
The above Wins happened because voters were appealed to on the basis of their patriotism, noblesse oblige towards their fellow citizens, desire for sovereignty & continuity
So, let’s stick with what works, and keep the Larping nonsense at the kiddie table.
Outstanding.
One of the best things Ive heard.
Testudo!
Congratulations to all three of you.
I forgot,
I dont care if Greg and Andrew disagree on this or that.
All I care about is that 2 leading figures who had rarely communicated before had the fortitude to jump into a public discussion at a critical time for our movement and put aside their differences. And that they were open and respectful and engaging and challenging and listened to each other etc. At no time did I get a sense of either of you guys wasting any time trying to score meaningless points on the other etc.
Its imperative that this be the first of many discussions like this.
Imperative.
Imperative.
imperative.
You were both great. Excellent podcast! I think Anglin’s attitude is that Whites and Jews have been deadly enemies locked in a power struggle for a very long time. Jews have destroyed many White lives and don’t show any signs of bad conscience. Frankly they seem to revel in our abasement and ruin. However many died in the supposed Shoah, I doubt that the morally upright Germans killed out of malice – or in industrial “death factories.” But it is a nasty subject.
First, it is factually indefensible. No honest revisionist claims that the Holocaust never happened.
If they don’t, they should.
The Holocaust exists physically in monuments and museums in almost every major Western city. It makes the implicit (and often explicit) claim that Jewish suffering during World War II was vastly more significant than any other suffering in history. Hence the need for so many monuments and museums and movies to properly commemorate it, and hence the absence of similar acts of commemoration for other suffering. Since the claim of preeminent Jewish suffering is obviously false, and since the Jewish Holocaust is the propaganda vehicle for making that obviously false claim, it is reasonable to say that the Holocaust never happened.
That may not be a useful argument for everyday politics. But it is a useful argument — really a truth — for anyone who opposes Jewish power.
I agree with Andrew that it is important to use mockery to counter the weaponization of the Holocaust.
Anglin has done many great things, but one of his most valuable accomplishments is to turn the Jewish Holocaust’s more outlandish (and “factually indefensible”) claims — Jewish soap, lampshades etc — into comedy-laden weapons.
The Holocaust is a great big pile of dead Jews, not a normative claim that Jewish suffering is more important than non-Jewish suffering. You can drop that moral absurdity, but there’s still a great big pile of dead Jews.
Beyond that, I don’t find the Stormer all that funny.
Were some brackets missing there? I found this remark unclear.
‘They’ DO exploit (wrongly, too) the ‘moral’ extrapolation of the ‘facts’ of the lie.
JEWISH WEEK, 29 April 1979: “The Holocaust is our strength. We have been shielded by it for a generation.” cited in page 40, ‘The Yellow Peril’ by Revio Oliver.
Presumably your ‘great big pile of dead Jews’ doesn’t signify endorsement of the Talmudic 6mio or a purposed act of genocide.
http://img275.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=76475_Beforeandafter_122_35lo.jpg
Pierce I thought expressed it well in “Thoughts on the Holocaust”:
I know that Jews were killed during the war. I’ve talked with German soldiers who shot Jews. In
the war against the Soviet Union and Communism, the Germans found that virtually all of the
Jews they encountered on the Eastern Front were Communist partisans, that Jews were heavily
involved in Communist guerrilla activities, in sabotage, and in other hostile actions against the
Germans. Often the only way to pacify an area was to round up all of the Jews and ship them off
to a concentration camp or to shoot them. Most of the other folks on the Eastern Front — the
Poles, the Ukrainians, often even the Russians — were happy enough to have the German Army
get the Communists off their backs, but the Jews were fanatically pro-Communist. The Soviet
Political Commissars who were attached to all Red Army units to spy on ordinary Russian
soldiers and look for any signs of Political Incorrectness nearly always were Jews, and the
German Army in many cases separated these Jewish Political Commissars from their Russian
prisoners of war and shot the commissars.
The Holocaust is a great big pile of dead Jews…
Since there have been many piles of dead bodies throughout history, especially during wars, the Holocaust cannot be “a great big pile of dead Jews.” It is instead the claim that this particular pile of dead bodies is vastly more significant than other piles of dead bodies.
Since the most important claim of the Jewish Holocaust is that this pile of dead Jews is devastating evidence of our wickedness, we are obliged to recognize and attack the Holocaust as a propaganda weapon. It is not a claim about events during World War II; it is an assault on us and was designed as such. Mockery of the Jewish Holocaust is therefore valuable, and Anglin is especially skilled at doing that.
***
“study of the Holocaust is also to study the pathology of Western civilization and its flawed structures” (Marcia Sachs Littell, Holocaust Educator.)
I agree with Anglin more in this regard. The holocaust issue must be black and white, leaving any gray area will eternally open the door to white guilt-shaming and endless social engineering. The holocaust virtue signaling simply must be thrown out to the curb if we’re ever going to create a strong, confident, racial spirit of unity.
You can’t deny the holocaust hasn’t been used as the number one tool throughout the western world to keep the moronic Ponzi scheme of racial psychological suicide going in the west. The wheels keep on turning, even today. The narrative needs to be put into question so people start to doubt its legitimacy.
Yes, the Nazis locked people up in camps and yeah lots of people died, but the absurdities and false claims regarding what actually happened during those 3 years is highly debatable. Maybe it’s time to shine the light on the revisionist history on other side and label them as the revisionist for a change and question their baseless “historical evidence”
“It is not the matador, just one of his capes that revisionists foolishly keep charging, thinking it is the man himself.”
Classic.
You encapsulated my thinking better than I could. Again. Thank you Greg.
This is the kind of opportunity that working with the “alt lite”, in this case Vox Day, opens up: it forced Andrew Anglin to seek a rebuttal, because the currency he deals in is attention, whether page views, or otherwise. If the good men of this movement move towards saner climes, it will force the attention seekers to scamper afterwards or become totally irrelevant. WE are THEIR bridge to the mainstream and they depend on us – we hold all the cards, as our target audience is not the converted, but the convertable – which I view as 80% of whites.
Greg was VERY collegial in dealing with some of the posturing of Anglin, such as that he is not quite sure if annihilating other races is or is not the way to go. I, and most white people (90%+) are QUITE sure, and no opportunity to hammer such vile garbage out of the movement is to be missed.
I was happy to see that after the initial inchoate posturing of Anglin was passed through like a storm, peaking through the clouds was the bright sun of Anglin’s Aryan soul, speaking of transcending the material, fighting Darkness and Evil and seeking Truth, Order, and the Right. This is exactly where this movement needs to go, if for no other reason as all other avenues are closed due to the debacles of the post-Alt Right Press Conference (9-9-2016) annus horribilis. Let us build bridges to people like Jordan B Peterson and Stefan Molyneux as we do the internal housekeeping needed to get this movement on the spiritual footing needed for victory.
The way ahead for the movement is to get back to Ordered Liberty + the Mantra against white genocide. Our goal of ethnostates is best achieved by helping the civic nationalists not harassing them. Later, when tasks such as securing free speech and staunching the demographic bleed out with walls and immigration reform are achieved, we will be in a viable position to go for the ethnostate.
Meanwhile we need to diversify our message and tackle things such as the replacement of humans by machines; in addition to everyone’s self interest here, we also have the benefit of hurting Big Tech, as well as promoting the same style of thinking that undergirds Respect for Nations, and pro-White politics. If people can accept that humans have a right to exist and a have a moral basis for “taking our own side” then it is but a hair’s breadth away from substituting whites for humans.
Right makes might.
Thanks for your leadership, Greg.
Just like Buckley, purging the right of “racists and Birchers”!