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Jews to Mormons:
We’ll Tell You What to Think

mormontemple1,103 words

French translation here

Mormons believe that the spirits of the dead can be baptized, allowing them to accept Jesus as their savior and thus enter heaven. Mormons think this is an improvement over mainstream Christianity, which teaches that those who do not accept Jesus as their savior are condemned to hell even if they merely lived in the wrong place at the wrong time and thus never even heard of Christianity.

Furthermore, Mormons believe that people living today can baptize the spirits of the dead, or accept baptism for them. The primary recipients of posthumous baptism are the ancestors of living Mormons, hence the Mormon genealogical database.

Finally, Mormons believe that the spirits of the dead have the power to reject Jesus. So posthumous baptism does not conscript people into heaven. It merely offers them a chance to receive salvation, which they can reject if they wish.

Personally, I am not too concerned what happens to me after I die. I would like my body to be cremated. I would like there to be a memorial service, and I don’t want it to be a “celebration of life” either. I want it to be somber, because I rather hope that I will be missed. Eventually, my name will be forgotten, just like Marcus Aurelius says it will. But it would be nice to delay oblivion as long as the Sage Emperor has. On matters spiritual, I confess that I am very interested in the possible survival of the spirit after death. But I remain an agnostic on the matter. All told, I don’t worry too much about what will happen to me after death, because I suspect that I really will be dead.

The last thing I am worried about is being posthumously baptized in a Mormon temple somewhere. I have been dodging Mormon missionaries my whole life. But I can’t really get mad at them for trying one last time. After all, I don’t really think they can send me to heaven. If I believed that, I would be a Mormon today. So I really think that posthumous baptism is all in their heads. It is just one more quaint religious belief, like Buddhist prayer wheels and Egyptian gods with the heads of crocodiles and dogs. This this does not alter the fact that Mormons are among the finest people I know.

Although posthumous baptism cannot affect me in the next life, what do I think of it in this life? Frankly, I think the idea is rather sweet. It is an act of kindness. I don’t care if people try to baptize me after I am dead or pray for my salvation while I am living. That’s their opinion. It doesn’t affect me. And they have every right to go on believing what they do.

After all, it would be churlish to get angry at people who wish me well, even if their happy thoughts make no difference one way or another. It is also stupid to get angry about such things when there are people who wish me ill, and who are very effective at putting their thoughts into action. There is far too much real evil in this world.

Frankly, I would have to be hypersensitive, narcissistic, and aggressive — and have far too much time on my hands — to get excited about the menace of posthumous baptism. Only an asshole would make an issue of it.

But assholes are in plentiful supply. For instance, in a CBS News article from February 14, 2012,  “Mormons Apologize for Baptizing Dead Jews,” we learn that the Mormon church has apologized to the family of Simon Wiesenthal for posthumously baptizing his parents. We also learn that this is not the first time that Jews have protested posthumous baptism. Apparently, in 1995 the Mormon church actually reached an agreement with Jewry promising not to baptize the spirits of dead Jews.

But this did not prevent Asher and Rosa Rapp Wiesenthal from being baptized by proxy in Mormon temples in Arizona and Utah in late January. “We are outraged that such insensitive actions continue in the Mormon temples,” said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which operates a Museum of Tolerance.

In its apology, the Mormon church blamed the posthumous baptism on overzealous individuals who have been barred from future use of the Mormon genealogical database. Being entered into the database is the first step toward posthumous baptism. In 2010, the Mormon church made changes to its genealogical database to prevent Holocaust victims from being put on the queue for eternal salvation. But that is not enough.

The database is carefully monitored by a renegade ex-Mormon, Helen Radkey, who tattles to Jewish organizations when Jews are threatened with salvation. It was she who discovered the Wiesenthal outrage. And she also discovered that Elie Wiesel and several of his relatives have been placed in  the database. (Wiesel, of course, is still alive, so perhaps he is at risk of being cast alive into the bliss of heaven.)

Jewish genealogist Gary Mokotoff thinks there need to be “consequences” for renegade Mormons who try to save Jews from hell: “If the word gets out that there are consequences, they’ll stop.” (When Jews start talking about consequences, I start thinking of the Gulag.)

Of course, no Jew believes that his departed relatives are actually being saved by Mormon posthumous baptism. Jews think that the whole thing is merely a silly belief that Mormons cooked up. So for Jews, the issue is not preventing fellow Jews from going to heaven. The issue is controlling what Mormons think about Jews. (In fairness to Jews, the Catholic church has also protested posthumous baptism, but apparently Catholics have not gone nearly as far as Jews.)

Unfortunately, the Mormon church is all too willing to let Jews control their thoughts. If the leaders of the Mormon church actually believe their theology, then their ban on posthumous baptism of Jews means that these individuals are being condemned to hell. By banning Mormons who try to save Jews from using the church’s genealogical database, they are surely preventing the posthumous salvation of non-Jews as well. But apparently the Mormon church thinks that this is a small price to pay to appease the lords of this world.

The only sincere people in this whole fiasco are the renegade Mormons who apparently believe their church’s teachings about posthumous baptism and are also innocent enough to believe the teachings of Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal that Jews, especially Holocaust victims and survivors, are such select and holy people that they deserve special treatment to get them into heaven.

 

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35 Comments

  1. Fourmyle of Ceres
    Posted February 27, 2012 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    THEIR GOAL IS GENOCIDE. OURS. WHAT’S YOURS?

    Trod in blockquote:

    Nothing you’ve said so far is in anyway related to the main LDS church. Perhaps you’re own fringe sect, but not the LDS church.

    I’m going to try to do a Harold Covington here, and not get off topic while addressing your points.

    My concern for the LDS Church is as an Institution which was based on the fulfillment of a metapolitical purpose, structuring itself differently, at different times, as needs changed. it is also explicitly Race based, in the sense of a Chosen Elect, who worked in (oftentimes quarrelsome) harmony to fulfill this unique common goal.

    It is that example we can learn from, and it is that example that I juxtapose against LDS as The Church Institutional. The Twelve probably place the investments of Ensign Peak and Zion’s Bancorporation over their greater investments, the unique development of their People.

    And, what have I said that is not true for the LDS Church? The Fifty? The Order of Abraham? All of these point to an internal hierarchical Order, one entirely within Tradition. Brigham Young had it right. He really did.

    Mormons accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Not as an “intuitionist” nor a myth.

    A “Prophet,” yes, but not a perfect Prophet. “Joseph Smith the Glass Looker” was certainly a spiritual Intuitive. Look up “Talisman of Jupiter,” and see how little mention was made of this in Church News. In the Old Testament, the Prophet was rigorously trained by the previous Prophet, in what might be called a School of the Prophets. Joseph wasn’t trained in this skill. He was, like the mathematician Ramanujan, a naturally skilled Master who lacked the training to become a Grandmaster.

    “Joseph’s Myth” was a reference to many stories told by Joseph, from the “golden” plates, to so many claims that were simply and easily refuted. The mitochondrial DNA evidence clearly defeats the claims of the “Lamanites” being in the New World. Well, there goes the historical and factual legitimacy of the Book of Mormon. If it seems the Book of Mormon strongly resembles Spaulding’s “View of the Hebrews,” well, “And lo, it came to pass!”

    The Book of Mormon is in no way a substitute for the Bible. Whereas the Bible is a record of the House of Israel generally, and of Judah in particular,

    Reread it again.

    The first ten chapters of Genesis are the universal story of Mankind, and applies to all of Mankind.

    The Bible is a record of much more than the story of the Nation of Israel, and you seem to ignore the fact that the Tribe of Benjamin chose to stay behind and help redeem the House of Judah, which had fallen into evil. Indeed, it seems Judah’s leadership accepted the Tribal God of Babylon, who they thought defeated their Tribal God, Yahweh. Do you see now why the heirs of Judah refuse to mention the name of THEIR God? I’ll have to check to see if Talmadge or Nibley mentioned this rather important fact.

    Incidentally, then, would the Book of Mormon/Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price be the story of other Tribes of Israel? Or is this only disclosed personally, as part of your Patriachakl Blessing?

    the Book of Mormon is of a small portion of the house of Joseph, whose “branch runneth over a wall” as Israel prophesied at the end of Genesis.

    Solely the Hosue of Joseph? I missed any mention to the House of Joseph in the Patriarchal Blessings I am acquainted with. Is that reserved for Mormon Royalty, the Heirs of the Trek of ’46?

    The larger issue is how Brigham Young built a Church, to support a People – a Race – in the fulfillment of temporal duties to support the fulfillment of a metapolitical destiny. Along the way, he took forsaken desert, and turned it into Our Beloved Deseret.

    Family – Church – Extended Family (Tribe) – Nation – State of Deseret

    THAT is an example we can learn from.

    What’s In YOUR Future? Focus Northwest!

  2. Trod
    Posted February 27, 2012 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    Nothing you’ve said so far is in anyway related to the main LDS church. Perhaps you’re own fringe sect, but not the LDS church.

    Mormons accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Not as an “intuitionist” nor a myth.

    The Book of Mormon is in no way a substitute for the Bible. Whereas the Bible is a record of the House of Israel generally, and of Judah in particular, the Book of Mormon is of a small portion of the house of Joseph, whose “branch runneth over a wall” as Israel prophesied at the end of Genesis.

    • Mike
      Posted December 11, 2015 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

      The Bible is in no, way, shape, or form a book of “Judah in-particular” unless you are over-emphasizing Christ’s condemnation of them in the NT. The Bible is primarily and clearly about Israel. You’ve been reading too much Jewish writing.

  3. Caleb
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    To be fair to Christianity, those who take 2 Peter seriously believe in universal salvation (and alas a lot of them corrupted it into secular egalitarianism generations ago):

    “[He] is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9

    It’s fun to ask a biblical literalist if God could fail to achieve something He willed.

    Forever is a long time, especially within time, and eventually the souls in hell will cast aside their egos and submit in contrition to God. It’s a lot more satisfying to have your enemies confess they were wrong and beg for forgiveness.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

      Just because God wills universal salvation, that does not mean that it will happen if human beings have wills of their own and can always refuse heaven. Therefore, universal salvation can only be argued for by denying our free will.

      • Sandy
        Posted February 25, 2012 at 9:11 am | Permalink

        Greg, You might want to read, doctor to doctor, Violent Motion: Newton’s Principia and the Metaphysics of Capitalism (Cultural Wars, January 2012) by E Michael Jones for he touches on that subject in the manner that only a man of cultivation and learning could. If I understand him correctly he is saying that Copernicus changed our concept of motion from a universe at peace with itself to one in constant motion and strife with all sorts of knock on effects on our culture.

        The Cartesians and the Calvinists expanded this attack onto substance itself to the extent that beings now have no essence or entelechy of our own so that our disposition is purely a function of will therefore what God now lacks as a creator he must make up for as a ruler and now works overtime to impose his will on a creation that has no internal purpose of its own.

        As you can imagine Jones wrote half a book on the subject and has potentially touched on a topic that could be tied into today’s craving for constant change, constant improvements and redevelopments. Being the good teacher that you are perhaps you could explain Jone’s thesis to us amongst the struggling class.

    • Fourmyle of Ceres
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

      THEIR GOAL IS GENOCIDE. OURS. WHAT’S YOURS?

      Caleb in blockquote:

      To be fair to Christianity, those who take 2 Peter seriously believe in universal salvation (and alas a lot of them corrupted it into secular egalitarianism generations ago):

      “[He] is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9

      It’s fun to ask a biblical literalist if God could fail to achieve something He willed.

      This is where the Mormons, being led by two religious Intuitives, find common purpose with the Bible.

      LDS states the purpose of Man as being “Man is, that he might have joy.” The source of joy is the fulfillment of a purpose in harmony with the Divine Plan for you, where you are one with God IN PURPOSE. Undeniably, Brigham Young could have abandoned the leadership responsibility required to follow the Call to the Great Salt Lake, where his followers faced starvation in the first winter. He didn’t, instead facing tremendous challenges as the spiritual and temporal leader of a Chosen People, chosen to fulfill a unique Destiny.

      Remember, of all creatures alive, only Man has free will, only Man can say “No” to God, Yet, He continues to make the way back Home available to all, who simply have to abandon what will not work, and make way for what will work. Thus, “Hell,” in THIS context, is simply being trapped into choosing to refuse to face the larger issues of transforming your karma into your dharma – your unfulfilled obligations from past lifetimes into the issues you deal with in THIS lifetime, and as many lifetimes as you need. Even then, if your own efforts are inadequate, by your Light, then, quite undeserved from our perspective, the miracle of Grace is offered.

      “Hell” is identifying with the material existence to such an extent that you are literally trapped on the wheel of reincarnation. Until the lower desires have been burned out and transformed into their spiritual counterpart, you are doomed to keep getting the lesson, until you get the lesson.

      God has done His part, and we must do ours. His unique gift of Freedom – TRUE Free Will – is offered for His reasons. What we have done with it requires continuing to get the lesson, until we get the lesson.

      Forever is a long time, especially within time, and eventually the souls in hell will cast aside their egos and submit in contrition to God. It’s a lot more satisfying to have your enemies confess they were wrong and beg for forgiveness.

      A major error we have made is to define our selves, and what we are doing, in terms of what our Enemies are thinking, and doing. Those are simply – not too simply, all too often – stumbling blocks for the Mind, and stepping stones for the Spirit. We have the power to turn our demons into servant angels, by seeing them in their proper context, as forces we strive against to develop our spiritual powers, just as we use weights to develop our physical powers.

      Hence, the importance of the metapolitical project, and the Northwest Republic of Harold A. Covington.

      Otherwise, we are simply Charlie Brown, playing “Lucy’s Rules Football” by Lucy’s Rules, and wondering why we are always flat on our back, looking up with the mind of a Child, and NEVER actually accomplishing anything. “Activity Without Productivity” seems a suitable motto for the last century or so of self-identified White Nationalism, with a very few exceptions, indeed.

      We MUST do better. Sending money to counter-currents is an excellent place to start. Defining your life, and the lives of your Posterity, fifty years from now forces you to think more like Schroeder, and less like Charlie Brown.

      What’s In YOUR Future? Focus Northwest!

  4. Stronza
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    “I hereby issue the decree that all the deceased Jews that were baptized are now un-baptized. There, everything is fixed.

    I affix my holy seal on this day,

    Grand Pu-bah Shorebreak
    Church of the Holey Doughnut”

    (Found on the world wide web.)

  5. Fibbles
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 6:57 am | Permalink

    Just to foment outrage, we should start a foundation to postumously convert Jews to Odinism, thus conscripting them to do battle for our side at Ragnorak.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 8:37 am | Permalink

      That’ll keep them out.

  6. Petronius
    Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:11 am | Permalink

    Correct Mormon answer: “As you please… let them go to Hell then!”

  7. Sector 19
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 11:55 pm | Permalink

    “(…) its genealogical database to prevent Holocaust victims from being put on the queue for eternal salvation”

    Would sure love the see how many records are returned for that query…
    ________________________________________________________________
    SEL3CT * FROM `mormon_geneaology_db` WHERE `holocausted`=TRUE ORDER BY `date_holocausted` ASC LIMIT 6000000;
    ________________________________________________________________

    Would solve the holocaust debate in one swift stoke of the [enter] key.

    xD xD xD xD –i’m goin-da hell for that one… xD xD xD xD

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 8:44 am | Permalink

      Actually, you have hit on an interesting angle here. Perhaps the organized Jewish community wishes to forestall Mormon posthumous conversions of Holocaust victims because the first step in the process is a fine-grained genealogical analysis that might ultimately undermine Holocaust death tolls. Is it conceivable that a virtually complete list of the names of all Holocaust victims could be assembled? Or if the list is not complete, that it would at least have a finite margin of error, say plus or minus 10%, which would be very telling if the total were significantly smaller than 6 million.

      • Verlis
        Posted February 22, 2012 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

        Yad Vashem has 4 million names, so they could start there. What would be interesting is to see what sort of “discrepancies,” if any, might be discovered. Also of interest (to me) is that only ten percent of the names are accompanied by photograph. A Jew might charge that it’s a wonder there are any photos at all, but considering how many Jews come out of the woodwork when it’s holocaust reparations time I can’t help but think there should be a few more photos, especially when you factor in the (perverse) Jewish pride that surely attaches to having had an ancestor perish in the single most important event of all recorded and unrecorded history.

  8. Sandy
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Fourmyle of Ceres: Do the Mormons not preach that the American Indians are Lost Israel? I am certain that I read that an early director of the Smithsonian was a Mormon and because of him all signs of antiquity found in America (i.e. The Kenwick Man) are deemed to be Indian regardless of their true origin.

    • Fourmyle of Ceres
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 1:16 am | Permalink

      THEIR GOAL IS GENOCIDE. OURS. WHAT’S YOURS?

      Sandy in blockquote:

      Fourmyle of Ceres: Do the Mormons not preach that the American Indians are Lost Israel?

      Classical LDS teachings are that the Indians are the heirs of a tribe called Lamanites, and, essentially, part of Lost Israel. DNA studies have thoroughly rebuked such ideas, as you can well imagine.

      Students of LDS refer to the teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith as “Joseph’s Myth.” Those with a stronger understanding of the issues believe Smith was a strongly naturally gifted Intuitive, untrained in The Inner Tradition, but having been trained enough in previous lifetimes to have a limited version of The Sight, without the deeper Understanding of what he was “seeing.”

      This was enough. He developed the Book of Mormon as a kind of substitute for the King James Bible, only giving mention to Jesus Christ briefly, in one chapter, Third Nephi, as I recall.

      The larger issue was Smith being strong enough an Intutitve to intuitively offer better ideas to a defeated, broken people, who were trying to recover from a horrific Depression. A new social order was just the thing, and the early Church borrowed from many religious Institutions to form new structures to meet the needs of those desperately seeking Hope.

      The Book of Mormon was simply another tool of religious and social exclusivity. As Smith said (paraphrasing): “They have the Bible. We have the Bible, too, and much more.” This included a hierarchical Church with a Prophet, Seer and Revelator at its head, supported by Elder’s Quorums, and the Relief Society.

      I am certain that I read that an early director of the Smithsonian was a Mormon and because of him all signs of antiquity found in America (i.e. The Kenwick Man) are deemed to be Indian regardless of their true origin.

      Kennewick Man, and others, are more political attempts by Indian tribes to claim authority over certain places, and institutions. I don’t think the LDS people had anything to do with that. That was simply maintaining the status quo of political correctness, and not allowing any other groups to claim, say, the rights to have separate nations with gambling casinos.

      As for the politically correct construction, “Native Americans,” remember that they may well have been “Native” (ultimately, from Siberia), but they were not “Americans.”

      After all, there was no “America,” and thus no “Americans,” until we arrived.

      What’s In YOUR Future? Focus Northwest!

    • Posted February 22, 2012 at 3:32 am | Permalink

      Sandy
      The Book of Mormon states that Lost Tribes reached South America, and that the Lamanites (if I recall correctly) were cursed by God for transgressions by darkening their skin; reminiscent of the curse of Ham. It is unlikely that the Smithsonian would be enduringly influenced by the theories of a Mormon of yesteryear. Mormon scholars have however provided interesting studies on the ancient Europoid presence in the Americas. LDS have included stirling nationalists such as Secretary of Agriculture, Ezra Taft Benson, who had been a longtime subscriber to the old Thunderbolt nerwspaper. In New Zealand one of the few mainstream politicians who was worth a damn, the late Ben Couch, a Maori and a Mormon, when Minister of Police, stated that apartheid was the best system for South Africa, albeit being promptly reprimanded; and also appeared at a League of Rights meeting; the League, in the liberal mindset, being akin to ‘neo-nazism’. The only notable Rightist organiser in New Zealand at street level, Kyle Chapman, is a longtime Mormon.

      Like any organism of long duration, whether political, cultural or religious, etc. LDS is showing symptoms of etiolation.

      • Sandy
        Posted February 22, 2012 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

        Thank you Fourmyle of Ceres and Kerry for the info on the Mormons – most interesting. I was struck that the Mormons also have the silly belief that being coloured is a curse from God. Can anyone throw any light on its origins ?

  9. Fourmyle of Ceres
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    THEIR GOAL IS GENOCIDE. OURS. WHAT’S YOURS?

    I know a little about this.

    Joseph Smith was a religious entreprenuer par excellence. Brigham Young was an organizational genius of the first magnitude, equalled in Church history only be Eldon Tanner, father of Correlation.

    The First Mormons believed they were the saving remnant of True Israel, two tribes in particular. Just as the Old Testament has an awful lot in it about genealogy, so does the LDS version of Christianity. In the LDS Universe, you are part of an extended family – a Tribe – on Earth, linked to your extended spiritual Tribe. Can you think of any other religion that follows this doctrine? Judaism? Is this part and parcel for the effectiveness of Judaism, and its link to a metapolitical Purpose? Bet on it, Pilgrim.

    The Mormons figured it out. They just don’t work with such a metapolitical focus, manifesting the transcendent as purposefully, as the Jews do.

    The Jews are bullshit mad over this, because the Mormons have INSTITUTIONALIZED the linkage between the temporal nation, the Tribe, and the transcendent nation, the Greater Tribe. Only a very few in LDS define the issue in this manner. The Order of Abraham, and the Council of Fifty – “the Fifty” – have it dialed in. Their duty is to try to keep the LDS variant of Christianity on track to the metapolitical purpose.

    The Jews are terrified because ONE sect with Institutional Christianity has discovered the compass, the map, and the power source that is Christianity’s version of the Jewish cultural function. Albeit by accident, like a child playing with an electrical socket, the LDS Church has considered themselves True Israel, trhe true Remnant Nock described.

    In short, the Jewish attack seems to be little more than a culture of critique; criticism which serves to distract one from the Larger Issues.

    After all, if the LDS Church is so wrong in doing this, why should the Jews care one iota?

    The Jews don’t worry about, say, Southern Baptism, Paganism, Wicca, Islam, any number of religious variations.

    On THIS issue the Jews go into full blown hysteria, and, I can assure you, “It Is NOT By Accident” that this is so.

    As well, the Jews seek the usually “apology.”

    NEVER APOLOGIZE.

    That is the First Step in the Approval Process, where you seek their approval and validate them as being morally and politically superior to you. Once you start, they never stop.

    What’s In YOUR Future? Focus Northwest!

  10. Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    I take beef with the Mormons doing this. Next thing you know heaven will be branded as “too puritanical” and we’ll be forced to take in immigrants from purgatory. Not to mention each pearl at the gates would be leveraged 100,000 to one. No, gracias.

    • Sandy
      Posted February 21, 2012 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

      Please Flavia, No more jokes. I almost spilled my drink laughing.
      Next thing you know heaven will be branded as “too puritanical” and we’ll be forced to take in immigrants from purgatory. Not to mention each pearl at the gates would be leveraged 100,000 to one.

    • uh
      Posted February 24, 2012 at 2:00 am | Permalink

      “Next thing you know heaven will be branded as “too puritanical” and we’ll be forced to take in immigrants from purgatory. ”

      ¡Pues hay azar que yo lo entraré!

  11. Greg Johnson
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    Yes, they are stretched rather thin.

  12. Lew
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    According to the Gospel of John, Jesus had this to say about Jews:

    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    – John 8:44

    It would be nice if Christians would review their own religious text. It’s amazing they haven’t given in to Jewry’s demands that they edit passages like this one out of the Bible. I’ve read that some Jews have demanded that.

  13. Visionsofglory14
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    From my purely empirical comparison of Mormons and the hodgepodge of groups called ‘Christian,’ I can say for sure that Mormons are the saved group, if one’s salvation does in fact depend on the basic rules that Mormons and other Christians agree on. The Mormons I have met tend to be more familial, more friendly, less hypocritical, less judgmental, and are less often insane than the Christian I meet who differentiate themselves from Mormons.

    An evangelical Christian I know told me that Mormons constantly ‘pretend’ to be happy. More likely than not, ideas like that spread out of envy for many Mormons retained joy and simplicity in the face of a depraved culture.

    • Fourmyle of Ceres
      Posted February 22, 2012 at 1:32 am | Permalink

      THEIR GOAL IS GENOCIDE. OURS. WHAT’S YOURS?

      Visionogglory14 in blockquote:

      An evangelical Christian I know told me that Mormons constantly ‘pretend’ to be happy. More likely than not, ideas like that spread out of envy for many Mormons retained joy and simplicity in the face of a depraved culture.

      Fascinating observation, and, in many cases I know, right on the money.

      What the evangelicals refuse to accept is the power of organization, particularly in order with a metapolitcally ordered System of Governance. Most of them simply refuse to think, and follow libertarian ideas without question.

      By the way, most evangelicals do not read the Bible. They seem to be like a reincarnation of the Quakers in many respects. Hmmmm.

      While LDS women tend to be heavier users of prescription tranquilizers than many would expect, and Salt Lake City is the bankruptcy capital of America, there is a division within the LDS Church, and the old School types see themselves along the line of Nock’s Remnant.

      A fascinating example of this was the group – an extended Family, led by a Patriarch – who were totally uprooted in the name of suspected child abuse in Arizona. The property he had was nothing but his Family turned it into very productive land, while staying true to their Traditions, Faith, and Practices. You know, home teaching, no television, stuff like that.

      Take HIM, and link him with like-minded Families in the area, and things could start to happen.

      Speaking of LDS Organization, a splinter group, led by a Charismatic, left and moved to Bountiful, Canada. They seem to have done well. That’s close enough to the Northwest Republic for me. LDS also has a substantial presence in the Northwest Republic. Rexburg, Idaho, for example, comes easily to mind.

      Go to the LDS website and see how many of their temples are in the Northwest Republic – recently constructed temples, stake centers, and ward buildings, as well.

      And as for the errors of Joseph Smith, let’s not forget it is called Brigham Young University for a reason.

      What’s In YOUR Future? Focus Northwest!

  14. Verlis
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Although posthumous baptism cannot affect me in the next life, what do I think of it in this life? Frankly, I think the idea is rather sweet. It is an act of kindness. I don’t care if people try to baptize me after I am dead or pray for my salvation while I am living. That’s their opinion. It doesn’t affect me. And they have every right to go on believing what they do.

    As a practical matter, it just helps to bring into sharper focus the unfairness of the salvation/damnation doctrine. After all, if salvation is a turn-off to non-Christians (or non-believers of any variety) because in any age only a small proportion of the world’s population is saved, the numbers only look worse when we move back through history: some 100 billion have lived and died since the Resurrection, the vast majority of them non-Christian.

    The only credible argument I’ve heard Jews make on this issue is that the practice muddles the genealogical record.

    That’s just silly. For once, it’s actually a case of a plausible religious dispute (rather than a straight up case of slimy yids intellectually terrorizing opponents for purely ethnic motives). Most people would object to their ancestors being religiously transformed without their consent. How would you feel if Muslims claimed, say, Louis XIV as one of their own? (Or imagine the outcry if the Mormons should baptize Mohammed!)

    A better way to play this game with yids is to nominate accomplished Jews (living or dead) as “righteous Jews” (or another term to that effect), defined as a Jew who didn’t allow his Jewishness to get in the way of his humanity. None of this will make a bit of difference to the way yids see themselves, but that’s not the point. The point is to shape how others see them.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted February 21, 2012 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

      It is ironic that one of the common objections to Christianity is that it has no provisions for the salvation of Jews who lived before the time of Christ. Mormonism provides for the salvation of Jews in the next world. But they object to that too. There’s no pleasing some people.

    • Lew
      Posted February 21, 2012 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

      Most people would object to their ancestors being religiously transformed without their consent. How would you feel if Muslims claimed, say, Louis XIV as one of their own? (Or imagine the outcry if the Mormons should baptize Mohammed!)

      Yes, I would be annoyed if Jews or Muslims put my grandfathers’ names in their database assuming Jews or Muslims had an analogous practice to posthumous baptism. I think this point goes to the issue of a confused genealogical record. It’s the reason it strikes me as a valid complaint. Why? Because Mormons apparently don’t just do these baptisms with a verbal ritual behind closed doors and leave it at that; they also appear to maintain durable public databases that establish a permanent record associating a person with a faith that he did not subscribe to in life and without the permission of his living descendants. That fact that they don’t appear to care about obtaining the consent of the living family members, to me, is enough to warrant describing this practice as inappropriate. And when you add to that the creation of a record that will be maintained in perpetuity, it rises to offensive — IMO.

      • AnalogMan
        Posted March 6, 2012 at 9:16 am | Permalink

        No, I fear you’re confused. It has nothing to do with “confusing the genealogical record”. What is “the” genealogical record? How would you go about confusing it? The Mormons have set up a private genealogical data base. That’s a non-destructive process. They enter genealogical data from public records of births, deaths and marriages. The original records are not affected. Jews are free to maintain their own genealogical data base, if they choose. If the Mormons’ data base is “confused” that’s their problem. The data base has no standing for any purpose other than their own.

        The existence of a name on their data base doesn’t in the slightest imply that the person was a Mormon. The whole point of proxy baptism for the dead is precisely that the person was not a Mormon, else he would already have been baptised.

        Greg is correct. The only possible reason to object is that the Jews are arseholes.

      • Lew
        Posted March 10, 2012 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

        No, you are wrong.

        When Mormons enter names into a database without consent, their activities become the legitimate business of non-Mormons.

        If they don’t want scrutiny and criticism from outsiders, they ought to keep non-Mormon names off their list.

        Furthermore, if the practice is so private, how is it that everyone knows about it?

        The database must either be 1) public or 2) secured so poorly it is de facto public.

        So no, although Jews are indeed assholes, being an asshole is far from the only possible reason for objecting to this practice.

  15. Henry
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    The only sincere people in this whole fiasco are the renegade Mormons who apparently believe their church’s teachings about posthumous baptism and are also innocent enough to believe the teachings of Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal that Jews, especially Holocaust victims and survivors, are such select and holy people that they deserve special treatment to get them into heaven.

    It would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for Elie Wiesel and Simon Wiesenthal to enter the Kingdom of God.

    The New (Realistic) Testament: Mathew 19:25:

  16. Lew
    Posted February 21, 2012 at 2:41 pm | Permalink

    The only credible argument I’ve heard Jews make on this issue is that the practice muddles the genealogical record. They argue the practice will create confusion in the future about who was Jewish and who wasn’t during his lifetime and what the person at issue believed when he was alive. I can understand how the practice might create concern among people who don’t want their families remembered linked to Mormonism whether the people doing it have good intentions or not. Wiesel might not care about what happens after he is dead, but what about his kids, grand-kids, etc.? Certainly they likely care how Wiesel will be remembered because they will still be alive even if he isn’t.

    The element of this dust-up that most concerns me is that it’s more evidence the Mormon leadership is taking the wrong path (the anti-White path). The leaders apparently care more about pleasing Jews than their own most cherished beliefs. It’s not a good sign. In this respect, they are catching up with the Catholics and all of the other branches of the Christian family.

    • Greg Johnson
      Posted February 21, 2012 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

      I don’t see how anyone could be sincerely confused by posthumous baptism. If one does not believe in it, then it says nothing about one’s ancestors’ actual beliefs when alive. And if one does believe it makes a difference, then one would have to be a Mormon anyway and would presumably want one’s ancestors baptized. If you are a Mormon, you cannot object to it because you believe it is true. And if you are not a Mormon, you cannot object to it, because you believe it is nonsense. Ergo, the only people who object to it are assholes who wish to dictate what Mormons think. I don’t see any other alternative.

      • Lew
        Posted February 21, 2012 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

        I meant Wiesenthal not Wiesel. I got my Holocaust Jews mixed up there.

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